Are people just less tolerant of disability accessibility now ?

[Takemeback02]

I have been raising a disabled child 11 years now and the first 5 ish years I never really dealt with many issues regarding to the assistance she received or disability access.
the last 5 years has been a real struggle. Usually transport / theme parks etc

most recently 6 of us went on holiday abroad to a European destination, 2 disabled children who require a lot of extra care with very high medical needs and equipment. We always check the hotels first and we speak to before choosing one that works for us. We picked a hotel that offered reserved disabled Sun beds. We arrived and they offered us 6 ( same as whole party ) but we told them we only needed 3. We chose ones away from the kids sections and to the side of the main pool,
they were reserved everyday. They placed disabled badge stickers on the beds for the duration of our stay. I reckon there
was 3 days out of 10 where we didn’t have an issue with someone taking them. Most would move on once asked but have a little moan as they did it and a few who got obviously very upset.

one of the days was a nightmare, we were at the pool bar and physically saw a women tair off the disabled badge sticker and throw it on the ground. I put it back on before going to get the kids
changed and when I got back lady was on bed and had removed the sticker again and lobbed it on the floor.

I just feel the last few years there is an obvious difference in peopls
Tolerance for accessibility or has it always been this way ?

don’t get me wrong I know from the past actual accessibility had got far better but it just feels like it annoys people now.

The pram user runs the risk? What on earth are you talking about? Unfortunately, beinging a wheel chair doesn't exempt you from the mundane annoyances of life either, buses drive past bus stops full of people all the time because they are full, it's unfortunate, but a wheelchair user could have to contend with the same scenario-there is not enough space-you'll have to wait for the next bus. You cannot expect a mother a her children to get off a bus mid journey. A wheelchair user is entitled to use the accessible space provided-yes, however, they are not entitled to have people who have already paid for their journey fair and square leave the bus, and then wait for and pay for another journey-this is unreasonable in the entire opposite direction! The same way no one else has that right. This is the kind of attitude that breeds contempt against disabled people. Accomodations are there with the aim of giving disabled the same, or as close as possible to, opportunities and ease of access as everyone else. They are not there, nor do we want them to be there so as to give us preferential treatment like say, making someone get off a bus, so we don't have to wait for the next bus. A full bus isn't something disabled people are exempt from, that's just a part of everyday life. Sometimes the bus is full, and you have to wait for the next one. That's not a specific disability issue, that's just an everyday mundane issue that I'm sure is just as frustrating for everyone who watches 3 jam packed buses cruise on by, when all you want to do is get home after work. It is not any better or any worse if you happen to watch that bus go by standing on your own 2 feet, in a wheelchair a mother with twin babies in a buggy a 90 yr old man or a17 year old lad who everyone stares at for not letting the 90 year old go first, not realising it's the 17 year old who has crippling joint pain and is in more need of a place on the bus than the 90 year old or the wheelchair user. But I digress, the point is I think you'll find it hard to find that the majority of wheelchair users agree that a parent with kids inba buggy, should vacate the bus for them. You may well find frustration around the lake of accessible buses, or public transport in general which would be valid, but expecting buggy users to get off the bus, I really don't see it.

There was a poster on here not too long ago that was part of the fight, I can’t remember her name though.

the thing people need to remember is none of us know when we will be the person with disabilities. I have two family members who have become wheelchair users in the last 5 years, 10 years ago they were perfectly fit and healthy.

everyone should be fighting for disability rights.

Thankfully the law disagrees with you.

All of this

We were agreeing so nicely earlier as well....

Nope. Wheelchair users have legal priority over the wheelchair space. This means that people with pushchairs and anyone standing in it must, by law, vacate the space when required for a wheelchair user. Often we can all fit, as I outlined above. But if we can't, then no, it is not at all unreasonable to expect the person with the pram to get off the bus. They have no legal right to be in the space.

And yeah, buses sail past us all the time. Occasionally because they're so full nobody can get on. Sometimes because the driver can't be arsed to put the ramp down or ask people to move from the wheelchair space. And sometimes they stop and the person with a pram refuses to vacate the space, in which case we're reliant on the bus driver to enforce the law by refusing to move until we can get on. They often don't, though.

No, it doesn't actually. There's no law that requires a person already on any form ofnlublic transport to disembark should a disabled person need to board. None what so ever. Feel free to search for the relevant caselaw to 'prove me wrong' I guarantee you won't find it, but I'm also sure you won't take my word for it. I'll check back later...

I’m afraid to tell you you are wrong. This isn’t an issue of opinion- it’s a simple matter of law.

but a wheelchair user could have to contend with the same scenario-there is not enough space

Yes, if a wheelchair user is already in the wheelchair space then we wait for the next bus- has it occurred to you that there are 10s of spaces for able bodied people on a bus- but one single wheelchair space which you want to take.

yes, however, they are not entitled to have people who have already paid for their journey fair and square leave the bus,

Yes, legally that is exactly what we are entitled to.

pay for another journey

You don’t have to pay for another journey- bus companies have a system in place for this (either they radio the next but to let them know, or they give you a ticket which will tell the next bus what has happened).

On the other hand if you do refuse to move and the bus company is forced to pay for a taxi/mini bus for the wheelchair user (which they have to if the driver can’t get you off)- you can find yourself with a bill for that (and a ban from the bus company)

Exactly.

Fact is @est1980 you do need to get off the bus if a wheelchair user needs it. You go on and on about how annoying it is if the bus is full for anyone and that's just life. But what if there's a buggy in the next bus? And the next one? And the next one? Wheelchair users campaigned for that space. Buggy users didn't.
The other thing to remember is, in a few years this won't be an issue for the buggy users of today. The Wheelchair user however is still in a wheelchair and now fighting with the next generation of buggy users. It's never ending for them. While you may have a few years of hardship having to get off the bus, in a few years you won't have to. Wheelchair users don't grow out of their chairs.
And I guarantee should one of your DC become disabled and need a special needs buggy or a wheelchair you'd be the first to demand it be available for them.

As I said, you can refuse to move, and be banned from the bus company and chased for the cost of the alternative travel the bus company has had to provide.

You confusing vacating the space with vacating the vehicle entirely. There is no law that would demand this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/buses-and-coaches-features-and-help-for-disabled-people/buses-and-coaches-features-and-help-for-disabled-people#:~:text=The%20driver%20must%20let%20you,located%20in%20the%20wheelchair%20space

tje law on wheelchairs on buses. The more threads like this I see the more I see an argument for having the wheelchair area completely cordoned off unless being used by a wheelchair.

Yeah- you fold your pram and shift yourself. Absolutely anywhere in any way you can, as long as the wheelchair user can get in the space.

It is okay to disagree with people you know. In fact, it makes for a much more interesting conversation than -I thinks this, yeah me too, I think that, yeah. Me too...it's healthy. Don't worry I neither like or dislike you anymore or less now that we have a difference of opinion, than when we were of the same opinion. The 2 are not mutually exclusive lol

Not disagreeing with this at all. Just the part where the parent with the pram is expected to get off the bus

They only have to get off if they won’t fold or move their pram.

wheelchair users only have one space on the bus. They don’t get to choose where to sit. Can’t go upstairs. Can’t face the direction of travel. Can’t travel with another wheelchair user. And have to fight with people who seem to think they “have rights”.

When you allow the majority to use a minority space, the majority try to push the minority out of that space and take it over.

Umm firstly, myself and both of my children are disabled.
Secondly, they are 17 and 19 and o drive so I neither use the bus nor a buggy-my examples were just that examples.

I'm not even going to comment on the ratiobale people with buggies didn't campaign for the space, so they shouldn't be able to use it. Except to repeat my earlier point that a lot of these spaces are 'accessible speces' not specifically wheelchair spaces, which absolutely includes buggy users.

Obviously There's the chance that bus after bus will pass with no space. Why not ask 6 able bodies people to get off so the buggy can move to make space for the wheel chair? It's just not a practical, no fair solution. Which is now leaning towards discriminating against what? Parents? Children who can't walk? Parents who don't drive and rely on public transport? Where does it stop? A bus driver could potential stop people boarding at the point there would ALWAYS be a space for a wheel chair, but aside from that somethings just are never going to a a perfect system that works 100% of the time. We need to remember, disability rights, or any other type of rights for that matter are about making sure things are fair and equal to all, but not at the expense of making things unfair for a different group of people. Making reasonable reasonable adjustments/accomadations -folding the buggy-a reasonable request that whilst it may irk the buggy user, would no be considered an 'unfair' request. This is a reasonably adjustment.

Making a person with a buggy get off a bus -this would definitely be considered and unfair request and therefore is not a reasonable adjustment.

Can’t travel with another wheelchair user.

Yep, I can’t go out with my mum on public transport because on a bus or in a taxi there is only one W/C space.

If my Ds’s disability means he needs a chair in future the same will apply to us- I won’t be able to take my son out on the bus or in a taxi (at the moment he is just about ok on my knee but at 10 that won’t last more than a few more months).

They don't have to get off at all. But the fact remains, folding the pram is not always an option.

Exactly, in my family we are lucky enough to have 4 wheelchair users (DS, my nephew and his Dad and my Dad) going on any sort of public transport together simply wouldn’t be possible.

we used a park and ride while away together a few years back and ended up split over 4 buses. My sisters family can’t travel together on a bus because two of them are in chairs.

public transport is a nightmare for people with disabilities and that’s before factoring in other people who think they are more entitled to the one space

I use a power chair sometimes. Other times I don't. Sometimes I overdo it and then I might be desperately ill for days or even end up in hospital. So I can't really do it all all but sometimes I make stupid decisions. I am regularly fully aware how lucky I am to have some mobility. But on the other hand the "disabled " (bed bound , unable to speak or swallow) part of my life is largely invisible to others. For instance I was helping at a charity event and I felt this weight of expectation that I should physically do things but I already felt unwell and knew it would be really dangerous.

Different battles and I am fully appreciative of my good moments and good days and never take those for granted but equally I am always at risk of ending up in ICU on a ventilator if I do too much so it's certainly no trivial medical condition despite outward appearances to a casual observer

How do you know they don't have a mobility issue? I look youngish and healthy. I don't walk with any obvious difficulty but the more I walk the more unwell I become and standing up makes me very ill rapidly (bizarre as it may seem it doesn't just make my legs weak it also can make me lose the ability to speak, swallow or see). But you wouldn't know that to look at me. Unless you spotted the little medicalert bracelet I wear everywhere

My DS could never travel on a bus because of severe sensory needs and autism, he'd be fine if we were the only 2 passengers though. Is it reasonable for me to demand everyone vacate the bus because he simply unable to use it if it's full of people?

It isn’t a matter of opinion, again, it’s the law.

If a buggy is in the wheelchair space the driver is legally bound to tell them to move.

If they won’t fold their pram, or there isn’t space to move it within the bus, then they move it off the bus- they can not legally occupy a wheelchair space which a wheelchair user needs to use.

If they don’t do that they are banned from the bus/the bus has to wait/the driver can call the police/the selfish dick who doesn’t move can be chased by the bus company for costs.

It’s really simple to understand.

a lot of these spaces are 'accessible speces' not specifically wheelchair spaces,

Every bus has to have at least one designated wheelchair space- they may also have ‘accessible’ spaces, and ‘priority seats’ etc- but if there is only one space with a wheelchair board and anchor in it- legally it is for the use of wheelchairs before anyone else.

No, because there are no legal provisions for needing an empty bus.