To feel angry at how few people make a plan for their own old age

[OptimismvsRealism]

We are all going to end up in a bad way unless we're lucky enough to drop down dead unexpectedly

Why do most people live in denial?

This is a very good point OP.

And at what point are you going to consider yourself as having reached old age? I’m guessing from your post that you don’t want to reach mid 70s, like your parents and their friends with the horror stories, so how will this work? Will you get to late 60s and top yourself? What if you’re still in really good health, completely independent, you’re financially secure and you’re really enjoying your life? Are you sure you’ll be ready to give it up?

Or what if something happens to you next week? Nobody has a stroke or gets hit by a bus, until they do. What is your plan for avoiding the need for 24 hour care when, overnight, you can’t feed yourself?

Sort a pension out if you can afford to. Save if you can afford to. Sort out a will if you’ve got anything to leave. Organise power of attorney while you’ve still got your faculties (assuming you trust your children). Don’t hoard stuff. All of that is common sense and what we all should be doing where we can, but the rest of it sounds like a teenager who is horrified at the thought of ever being 25.

My mum is knocking on for late 70s now. She hasn’t got a pot to pee in so there’s nothing to organise, other than cancelling state pension payments etc. She will never be going in a home and will never be found on the floor 36 hours after having fallen over. But that is my choice and my plan, not hers.

I also do not have a pot to pee in and unfortunately I can’t imagine a scenario where I’ll reach a ripe old age. If DH should go before me, for any reason, my plan is to always have my phone with me so I can call an ambulance if I need to, and to keep my home as clean & tidy as possible so the neighbours don’t gossip when the Housing Association has to hire a skip to clear the place after I’m dead. And that’s it. There is nothing else I can realistically plan for.

I sort of got what you mean.
I am the only single one in my family and still living with parents as can't afford to move out as a single person. I don't see that changing anytime soon. All my siblings have moved out as had much higher earning partners.
Despite having my own chronic illnesses, I know my father in particular assumes I will become a carer to them which I do find selfish.
In my opinion, old age creeps up quite suddenly. My grandmother always said she didn't want family caring for her if she got really infirm and yet when the time came, that's exactly what happened as she didn't want to accept anything else.

Nursing homes are different to care homes. Nursing homes are for people who need low level medical care and have a qualified nurse on duty at all times. The majority of residential care homes in England don’t provide nursing care.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree that a census is a snapshot in time, but the point of bringing up the stats in the first place was that people were saying that because only 2.5 % of people over the age of 65 are in residential care then it’s not something the average person should plan for. The UK government stats I linked to said that almost 40% of people aged 85 and over who died, died in a care home.

The takeaway from that is that if you live to a ripe old age, ie over 80, then there is indeed a good chance of you needing residential care. “Planning” for old age doesn’t just mean financial saving like a lot of people assume, it means thinking about the various scenarios that may occur and discussing and deciding with your loved ones what your wishes would be. Letting them know for example where the line is for you in terms of quality of life at which point you’d still want every medical effort made or whether you’d be happy to have palliative treatment only and let nature take its course. Put it in writing. Its never to soon to start.

The Elderly Parents board is full of exhausted daughters of parents who used to flippantly say things like “just shoot me if I get like that” and who took no steps to make things easier as they aged but expect others to now pick up the pieces. If that’s your ‘plan’ too then I hope you have really strong family relationships that will withstand the strain that will involve.

I can see where OP is coming from.

There are lots of people who for some reason or other just live without any thought of their future, believing somebody will surely help them at the end.

In my friend's family there's a father who once gave no s#it about his children and wife and just lived very nicely, and then he lost everything in a bad investment, now he's old and hass suddenly remembered he has children who surely must take a good care of him in his old age, and he doesn't care if his children have health or money problems, because he's the father and they must take care of him. So nice to have somebody to fall back to. And then there's a chorus of very supportive relatives who wouldn't move a finger to help him but are very vocal with their sermons in the tune of "he's your father, you must forgive him and love him, and take care of him".

That said, I don't think anybody can diligently save and prepare for their old age, and be sure that it will turn out exactly as hoped. Too many unexpected things can happen. Like a new government with weird ideas, a war or some sudden health problems. Still, there are things everybody can do and hope for the best.

Although 40% of those over aged 85 died in a care home

Many of those would only be there a few weeks

The majority of women have already died by then - the pension companies assume 82 - so at 85 you have less than 50% chance of being there

So planning for something that is unlikely to happen

40% of 40% would be 16% for example

and then he lost everything in a bad investment, now he's old and hass suddenly remembered he has children who surely must take a good care of him in his old age, and he doesn't care if his children have health or money problems, because he's the father and they must take care of him. So nice to have somebody to fall back to. And then there's a chorus of very supportive relatives who wouldn't move a finger to help him but are very vocal with their sermons in the tune of "he's your father, you must forgive him and love him, and take care of him"
@twoblackdogs hopefully your friend has the strength to humour them all by smiling nodding and making the right noises, but not actually do anything?

Ah yes - the hoarding can be a real issue and leaving it for someone else to sort out (my DF did this!). It wasnt a mental health issue only btw - he was lazy. Lived on his own in a large house and never did a stroke of housework. Just muddled on through until it got too much for him but it took him 50 plus years to get the house in that state.

Still - Tracker can sort this out and sell the house... Luckily he had some money and agreed I could be POA. I took it on as a project and he moved into a care home afterwards.

Also the very helpful suggestions (not!) from others telling you what you should be doing often from afar. They have NO idea what its like being on standby for everything, hospitals, care homes,GP's et al who ring you with almost always something you need to answer immediately. Has anyone ever tried to call back a hospital doctor when you have missed their call?

Care homes call you every time they fall and retirement complex's arent allowed to pick them up if they fall they call you! I did ask what would have happened if I wasnt around and they said the next option was the paramedics.

Paramedics attend after often a few hours and they want to speak to you because parent isnt making sense or calling out for you? My DM once said to me 'who do I call if not you Tracker??'

How old is OP? Has s/he said?

You're right that there are people who don't plan, but there are also people who can't plan for a whole number of reasons - both financial and otherwise.

It's also very easy to sit there and say "X relative didn't plan" or "they fibbed about what was going on" but most people don't want to admit they're struggling or that their bodies are failing - they often also don't know (because of various cognitive issues). MIL passed away recently and she was genuinely in denial about the state of her health for a whole number of reasons. Some avoidable but others inevitable.

I'd also add that planning is all well and good, but it's not a surefire way of protecting yourself either.

I doubt that pension companies assume 82 as the average lifespan. The standard calculation is something like total pension pot divided by 25 (for 25 years of pension).

What most people don’t realise is that 82 is an average, including all those who have succombed to cancer in their 60s and 70s (which pulls that average down).

The key statistic is the ‘mode’, which is sort of the ‘most popular’ age to pass away. For men, modal age of death is something like 87 and for women it’s something like 93. According to the office of national statistics, most recent week available: 2.7k deaths for the over 90s (the most popular age range to die within), 2.2k deaths in the 85-90 age range, and 2k deaths in the 80-85 age range.

As for the statistic (someone quoted 2.5% ?) that only a low proportion of elderly people go into a care home, this is misinformation. The true picture emerges when you compare place of death using the very same office for national statistics website. For the most recent week, roughly: 3k people died at home, 5k in a hospital, 0.5k in a hospice and 2.6k in a care home. That’s about a third of all people dying in a care home.

As for the claim that most people only spend a few weeks in a care home, again, misinformation. LSE research says the median stay is 19.6 months.

What the above all means is that, yes, we should plan for what happens when we reach old age rather than assume something will turn up or someone will sort it out for us,

I use the two terms interchangeably, actually. There is no difference. You are just making things up!

My plan is none of your business. Maybe you should get started on yours, though.

That assumes the person has capacity. This silly phrase it trotted out as if its set in stone.

I don't know about you, but I change my mind sometimes multiple times per day.

In fact, with a litte more thought on this, I’ve realised that it is likely a large proportion of people dying in hospital have been transferred there from a care home. So, the proportion of people spending time in a care home is in fact much higher.

Actually, this general medical council rule takes precedence:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it.

I am working on building friendships, so that I feel less alone, but ultimately I don't think I will ever truly get over my fear and it will taint the rest of my life. I feel a bit of a fool to have ever got into this position, even though much of it has been outside of my control.

There's so much value placed on family by society, that it's very hard when you don't have that. And there is never a day goes by when you are not reminded of it when you are literally surrounded by families. It's stupid things too, like you'll go into a shop and see a photo frame in the shape of the word FAMILY, often with a tag line such as 'is everything'. It's hard not to then feel that your life is worthless.

As I say though, I am doing my best to make friends and to try to plan for the future. It's all I can do, but it doesn't stop me feeling scared.

Uk gov ons

Life expectancy for female is 82.6 year

Yes the pension does assume therefore that they will make a profit based on living to 82 ( less for men) - it's like "you don't believe" vs I have been researching retirement and speaking to experts recently

Most people do not end up in care homes

Sorry if that's not your experience, that must be tough , but thinking about all my family who have died - very few did end up in a care home

Aunty p just died
Dad just died in hospital
Uncle m just died
Grands both just died - one in hospital
Nana m spent less than 3 months in a care home
Nana g just died
Aunt and uncle j both just died at home
There's a sort of aunt who is in a care home now , and 7 very aged relatives who just live at home and the help is getting a gardener in or the like

Actuarial calculations are about life expectancy, not profits. If we are talking about defined benefit pension schemes, the consideration is financial viability - the pension fund not being underfunded/in deficit.

Your personal experience - it’s great for all your relatives, but doesn’t this also prove the OP’s point because, presumably, all of those relatives would have needed someone to care for them at home?

I think what some people who trot out the 'oh just stick me in a home' line to their children don't appreciate is that unless they can afford to pay privately for this, that can't / won't happen until they reach the point at which the state is prepared to fund it (i.e you are in quite a bad way). There can be many years leading up until that point in which you will need some (or perhaps quite a lot) of help, but will not 'qualify' for a home.

The point is that

If 40% or people over 85 die in a home but less that 50% of people reach 80 ( average across male and female) then there is no way the majority or even an election winning minority ever go into a care home. The usual number quoted ( by the pensions and financial guys) is 10% . And many of those won't be in there for a long time

Therefore it is not really necessary for people in their 20s or 50s to save for possible care home fees unless they particularly want to

There is no need to live in fear of the care home as it's unlikely to affect you

It doesn't matter if people have the money , most people would still do everything they can to avoid going into a care home so having the money won't solve the problem of infirm people demanding support from others

Plan for old age-
Save into you pensions funds even when you are financially stretched
Make your will and PoA even though that seems a long way off
Don't panic

The problem seems more getting older people to accept the help they need and to buy in the help they can afford

I suspect that until agism is wiped out of society that problem is here to stay

I don't mean to worry you, but do you not think now is the time to start developing your support network, rather than the future? I know 65 is not elderly, but you are a lot older than me (almost 30 years older) and it is something I am already thinking about and working on. Friendships can take a long time to develop and it can find a long time to 'find your people'.

Anyway, just thinking out loud really. If it's not helpful, please ignore!

Of course I’m not making things up. There is a real difference between nursing homes and residential care homes. It certainly matters if you’re looking for a place in one of them!

www.careuk.com/help-advice/what-s-the-difference-between-a-care-home-and-a-nursing-home

Big difference between nursing and residential. The clue is in the names. Residential is just that - it caters for people with no major medical problems. Nursing homes have actual nurses in them, and care can be escalated as medical conditions escalate.

A nursing home will have a drug cabinet and extra equipment too. Big difference

@OptimismvsRealism Euthanasia / assisted suicide terrifies me. We should be investigating in treatments and palliative care instead, IMHO

I particularly worry that, in future, those with means will be encouraged to look at nice care homes, but those without means will be nudged down the route of "if you feel your life is intolerable, we've got a pill for that"

You may think this is hyperbole, but look how abortion is regarded now (healthcare on demand, woman's right to choose) compared with when the legislation was passed in the 1960s (abortion only permitted in v limited circumstances). This may well be a good thing, but my point is that, on any view, it's easier to get a termination now than was originally intended. And I have no doubt whatsoever that the same would happen with euthanasia / assisted suicide