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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

390 replies

Itsmyshadow · 10/07/2024 12:55

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

OP posts:
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7
Whatwouldscullydo · 10/07/2024 16:38

Puberty is a really tough time. We need to help children realise that it's normal to feel distressed at how their bodies are changing. But that they will eventually become more comfortable with it

Yes puberty is hard . But simultaneously it's now being made out to he so traumatic that the only solution is to transition in the hope you can not appear to go through it or get drugs to stop it.

I'm not saying every kid should sail through it but we all remember how little selection of products there were. Some even remember those belt things.

Bras consisted if having a tape measure thrown at you on the shop floor.

Why, when there is more choice than ever before. A product for every occasion. More sizes than you could ever have hoped for when we went through it, Is it suddenly so traumatic ?

Terrifying kids about their bodies seems to be a massive part of the problem. There's not a man or woman in the planet who doesn't have an embarrassing penis or period story but we weren't as terrified if it all as kids today. Why ?

Unless there is a medical issue. It's unpleasant, a bit of a shock to the system etc but it should not be seen as traumatic.

SD1978 · 10/07/2024 16:38

Gender is a ridiculous concept- and as others have said the importance placed on it should be scrapped. You don't 'feel' like a girl or a boy, you don't have a 'lady brain' you are either male or female sexed, and you can wear what you want, be who you want, and pigeonholing is unnecessary. No one follows the 'ideal' of what a stereotypical man or woman is supposed to be, so stop trying- be the individual you are within the biological realty of who you are too.

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 16:39

Latethannever · 10/07/2024 16:33

I accept Mumsnet is not a representative cross section of society but 725 votes and only 4% of those say YABU.

Surely it has got to the point now where we can all speak out to friends and make representations to schools and bring a halt to this pernicious ideology before any more children are harmed?

This thread is quite cheering as it wasn’t that long ago that we’d have been knee-deep in BE KINDery by page 2.

pistachioicecream · 10/07/2024 16:39

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 16:33

She replied stating she's been taught in school that it's not unravelling but instead we are now understanding how men and women and non-binary people are not defined by their sex but their brains and that men's brains are different to women's brains and that's why majority of care jobs are done by women and men typically go for leadership roles.

@Jourl , that’s terrible. Who the fuck is teaching this and why?

The ‘50s called and wanted their attitudes back. The 1850s.

@Jourl @SidewaysOtter Totally agree - this is terrifying. What on earth are they teaching in schools and how can we stop this?

This thread needs sending to Bridget Phillipson and Anneliese Dodds because I currently have no confidence that they are on top of this issue or even on the same page as the majority here.

LostTheMarble · 10/07/2024 16:40

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/07/2024 16:37

I wasn't actually thinking about parents when I wrote that but that's an interesting point. @Jouri's post (at 16.22) describes how her younger sister is unable to engage in any discussion, instead hurling insults and threats - and that seems a bit par for the course.
I actually feel sympathetic to parents too scared of alienating their children to stand up and protect them from this nonsense. But they are avoiding the "tough love" aspect of parenting where you have to see past the emotional blackmail and anger directed at you and protect the child behind all that from making dreadful self harming decisions. (Easy for me to say but hard to do in the face of captured schools etc)

To be fair, (and I say this from experience), it is much harder to parent an ND child in this way. Because meltdowns and self harm are very real difficulties for that child and you do have to tread a very delicate line as no one wants their child to hurt themselves in distress. But gender ideology leads to self harm in a whole other way.

OhmygodDont · 10/07/2024 16:46

Just imagine all us Tom boys horrified that we would have been trans’d should we have been children today. Scary stuff.

My lines always been nothing or just for boys or girls and if it is because of genitalia then it anit for children anyway 😅. So yeah one my my girls has “boys” shoes who’s idea was it that girls can only have “granny” shoes or open topped shoes btw. She might play football then she might paint her nails.

Just let children be children.

I also don’t get this “feeling” like a man or women bs. Like I just am. It’s me I was born this way. My boobs or my hair or my make up (or lack of) don’t make me a male or female I just am one.

Controversial and I’m sure I will get some flack for this one. How can you be a trans man and be or want to be pregnant. No offence to those who are infertile but it’s the most biological womenly thing you can do.

Caerulea · 10/07/2024 16:47

SpidersAreShitheads · 10/07/2024 15:07

There are many reasons why a child might feel drawn to express themselves to the opposite sex stereotype.

Social contagion, seeking to fit in, unconscious social pressure, rigid social sex-based stereotypes are all contributory causes.

Your two friends are gender non-conforming men. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The vast majority of people don’t care how other people lead their lives. You can see in this thread the countless comments from PP lamenting sexist stereotyping - and men are victims of that too.

The trouble is that the identity of women in particular is being squashed by some men who want to invade our single sex spaces and claim our voices. This has made many women understandably angry. This means any man who claims a trans identity will be viewed cynically because many don’t want to peacefully co-exist, they want to take something that isn’t theirs. If your friends aren’t using women’s changing rooms etc, then I’m genuinely sorry that they’ve being caught up in the backlash. Every feminist I know would support gender non-conforming men to be happy and would be an absolute ally - provided those men aren’t claiming to be actual women or using facilities designed to be single sex and for women.

Nailed it & your username is beyond perfect

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 10/07/2024 16:50

I haven't rtft but as a parent this is incredibly tricky. If you believe (as any rational person would) that she is a girl but can be any kind of girl she likes then it's OK to tell her that. As a parent you have the ability to influence her as much as any outside person. Tell her you dont believe in self ID and that you believe she is a girl. But tell her when she is an adult and if she feels differently then you will support her and love her no matter what. When she is 18 she can talk to you about it. Personally i think this shouldn't even be contemplated until adulthood and its despicable to introduce to children. I do believe a tiny percentage of people genuinely need to transition and it's important that they know they are accepted, negative comments about trans people could be damaging if she is in this minority.

Gowlett · 10/07/2024 16:55

I saw a gorgeous young guy today, having lunch with his mum & granny. He had long flicky hair. He was wearing a pair black of paper-bag waisted trousers with slip-on flats. And a nice little handbag, Fendi Baguette style. He caught my eye as he had a Damian Hurley thing going on. He wasn’t a boy dressed as a girl. Or transgender. I think more men dressed like this in previous decades, or centuries even. He looked great.

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:02

Gowlett · 10/07/2024 16:55

I saw a gorgeous young guy today, having lunch with his mum & granny. He had long flicky hair. He was wearing a pair black of paper-bag waisted trousers with slip-on flats. And a nice little handbag, Fendi Baguette style. He caught my eye as he had a Damian Hurley thing going on. He wasn’t a boy dressed as a girl. Or transgender. I think more men dressed like this in previous decades, or centuries even. He looked great.

This is what I mean about gender ideology being regressive.

Why can’t a man have long hair, a handbag and lovely shoes? Why would anyone say “You can’t be a man dressing like that! You must be a woman”.

MadameMassiveSalad · 10/07/2024 17:17

You are 100% correct op!

WhereIsTheHare · 10/07/2024 17:18

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/07/2024 16:38

Puberty is a really tough time. We need to help children realise that it's normal to feel distressed at how their bodies are changing. But that they will eventually become more comfortable with it

Yes puberty is hard . But simultaneously it's now being made out to he so traumatic that the only solution is to transition in the hope you can not appear to go through it or get drugs to stop it.

I'm not saying every kid should sail through it but we all remember how little selection of products there were. Some even remember those belt things.

Bras consisted if having a tape measure thrown at you on the shop floor.

Why, when there is more choice than ever before. A product for every occasion. More sizes than you could ever have hoped for when we went through it, Is it suddenly so traumatic ?

Terrifying kids about their bodies seems to be a massive part of the problem. There's not a man or woman in the planet who doesn't have an embarrassing penis or period story but we weren't as terrified if it all as kids today. Why ?

Unless there is a medical issue. It's unpleasant, a bit of a shock to the system etc but it should not be seen as traumatic.

Yes, I agree. We have medicalised something which is really a social matter. It’s all part of the over-protection of children I see now. I have been recruiting early years professionals for 25 years, and over that time there has been a distinct trend downwards in their maturity, resilience, entitlement and expectations over that time. The treatment of children as if nothing unpleasant or challenging should ever have to touch them has been part of creating this climate, and the terror of puberty which has been engendered is one serious symptom of this phenomenon. Children and teenagers are much more capable of dealing with emotions and issues than we give them credit for, if we would only let them feel the feelings and support them in overcoming them, rather than do anything and everything to avoid them having the feelings in the first place.

WhereIsTheHare · 10/07/2024 17:20

Gowlett · 10/07/2024 16:55

I saw a gorgeous young guy today, having lunch with his mum & granny. He had long flicky hair. He was wearing a pair black of paper-bag waisted trousers with slip-on flats. And a nice little handbag, Fendi Baguette style. He caught my eye as he had a Damian Hurley thing going on. He wasn’t a boy dressed as a girl. Or transgender. I think more men dressed like this in previous decades, or centuries even. He looked great.

Ah, this takes me back to the glorious 80s, with the New Romantics out-peacocking each other on Top of the Pops each week. Duran Duran wore more makeup than I ever have, but nobody, especially them, ever thought they were women!

Obechod · 10/07/2024 17:22

Totally agree Op. what their personalities are and what they like has nothing to do with sex or gender.

Your daughter is a girl and she can’t change that. But in no way should that stop her from being interested in whatever she likes.

My DD is a fairly girly girl but she plays sports that tend to be more male orientated.

TheKeatingFive · 10/07/2024 17:23

if we would only let them feel the feelings and support them in overcoming them, rather than do anything and everything to avoid them having the feelings in the first place.

This is a really important point

BarryStyles · 10/07/2024 17:24

@Whatwouldscullydo this 100%!
Yes puberty can be hard but it’s an essential part of life and development, we should be reassuring and supporting, not helping them avoid. Where does that leave them at their next hurdle, never mind what are the long term effects of unnecessary medicalisation?

BarryStyles · 10/07/2024 17:25

@Whatwouldscullydo this 100%!
Yes puberty can be hard but it’s an essential part of life and development, we should be reassuring and supporting, not helping them avoid. Where does that leave them at their next hurdle, never mind what are the long term effects of unnecessary medicalisation?

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/07/2024 17:27

WhereIsTheHare · 10/07/2024 17:18

Yes, I agree. We have medicalised something which is really a social matter. It’s all part of the over-protection of children I see now. I have been recruiting early years professionals for 25 years, and over that time there has been a distinct trend downwards in their maturity, resilience, entitlement and expectations over that time. The treatment of children as if nothing unpleasant or challenging should ever have to touch them has been part of creating this climate, and the terror of puberty which has been engendered is one serious symptom of this phenomenon. Children and teenagers are much more capable of dealing with emotions and issues than we give them credit for, if we would only let them feel the feelings and support them in overcoming them, rather than do anything and everything to avoid them having the feelings in the first place.

I know we have poverty in the UK and many a child is growing up in less than desirable conditions but we despite all the privilege we do have some how our kids are suffering massively witg their mental health.

The very notion of anyone being able to think about gender identity is proof alone of how much more privileged people are than in many other countries.

No one walking miles a day fir clean water, no girl who is having to drop out of school due to no period protection, no child being sold off to men 4 times their age for marriage is sat around contemplating which of the 100s of genders they are.

As you say treating kids as if Any form of negative event is trauma, cause for ptsd, proof that everyone hates them etc os not helping them in any way.

Kids who deal with far worse ate stull standing while ours are threatening to hurt themselves because they can't wear a skirt.

Something has gone massively wrong

DrBlackbird · 10/07/2024 17:36

Winterborne74 · 10/07/2024 13:49

Information about Pop ‘n’ Olly here. Should not be in schools in my view.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/dorset-ideological-capture/

And yet you get so many posters insisting this isn’t happening and it’s all silly women over reacting.

IamaRevenant · 10/07/2024 17:39

spannasaurus · 10/07/2024 16:10

May I ask what you think the difference is between GC and TERF

Christ almighty I've already said I wasn't sure! I'm willing to be educated but not patronised. As I understand it -

GC - believing that nobody can change gender (or sex obviously) but not necessarily against people being trans so long as they keep out of women's spaces, sports, prisons etc.

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

If the above is correct then I'm GC. My two trans friends do not affect anyone, they're very respectful of women's spaces etc and genuinely just seem like women to me. My neighbour is a fucking predator who tries to have 'pyjama parties' and 'accidentally' book double hotel rooms with female friends, and once asked me and my husband if we could make an excuse to go out and leave him with my husband's closest (bi) female friend so he could 'see what happens' (she had zero interest in the bloke with a beard in a dress funnily enough).

So yeah according to my understanding I am GC (also very much a feminist but don't believe trans people should be excluded entirely). Again, happy to be educated if I've got it wrong!

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:44

@IamaRevenant

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

I’m as Terfy as they come but I - along with the vast majority of TERFs I’ve met - aren’t at all against people being trans. Call yourself whatever you like, wear what you want, live as you please, date/have sex with whomever you want as long as it’s legal and consensual. But I believe a) no one changes sex, b) men need to stay out of women-only spaces and c) transitioning children is profoundly wrong. And all of that trumps a trans person’s right to live as they want, because it’s the path of least harm where there are conflicting rights.

IamaRevenant · 10/07/2024 17:57

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:44

@IamaRevenant

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

I’m as Terfy as they come but I - along with the vast majority of TERFs I’ve met - aren’t at all against people being trans. Call yourself whatever you like, wear what you want, live as you please, date/have sex with whomever you want as long as it’s legal and consensual. But I believe a) no one changes sex, b) men need to stay out of women-only spaces and c) transitioning children is profoundly wrong. And all of that trumps a trans person’s right to live as they want, because it’s the path of least harm where there are conflicting rights.

Edited

Agree with everything you've said so thanks for explaining! So I am a TERF. Happy to own it, although my SIL and several friends use that as an insult regularly. It's not something that's top of my political agenda so apologies for not getting it right.

If anybody wanted to discuss the PCSC Bill, homelessness, BLM, surrogacy, the housing crisis or poverty I'd be right on it so I'm not entirely clueless about current affairs 😅. I suppose we all have our priorities!

TheKeatingFive · 10/07/2024 17:58

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else

No this isn't accurate. The F stands for feminism and the Exclusionary bit refers to not including 'Transwomen' in their feminism (because they are men) ie not being intersectional in that way.

I don't think there are very many who are 'actively against people' who are trans who aren't impacting others.

GC and TERF mean pretty much the same thing

TheKeatingFive · 10/07/2024 17:58

Whoops X post

Hotgirlwinter · 10/07/2024 18:02

Well yes they’ve got it completely wrong.

Gender stereotypes have always been dangerous and should be challenged as much as possible.

Gender ideology should not be taught in school, genuine gender dysmorphia should be treated the same way any dysmorphia would be = therapy