Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

See, usually when we talk about minority groups, we are referring to characteristics that people have no control over. Ethnic minorities. Disabled people. Gay people. None of these things are a choice.

Male people are not a minority and they are not, as a sex class, oppressed. But when those male people decide that they identify as female, they suddenly become a vulnerable minority and we must let them have whatever they want?

What about the other minorities who are affected by this? What about Muslim women (an ethnic and religious minority group) who cannot undress in the presence of unrelated males? What is the impact on them of allowing male people to self identify into female only spaces? What about disabled women (a minority group in a largely able bodied society) who need same sex intimate care? What is the impact on them if a male nurse identifies as female and is assigned to care for them? What about lesbians (a minority group on a largely heterosexual society) who are exclusively same sex attracted? What is the impact on them if their lesbian communities (such as dating apps) are made inclusive of male people and they are kicked out for objecting?

"A blanket man is born a man so must only enter mens toilets" will in fact fix something. It will enable women to use women's toilets safe in the knowledge that no man is supposed to be in there and that if a man is in there we should call for help.

As for the WI, well, it's a slightly trickier issue. There is probably no safety concern from allowing trans women to join. And yes, there's the argument that if women are entitled to have strictly single sex organisations, then men are also entitled to have men only private members' clubs and golf clubs. Of course, the reason women should not be excluded from private members' clubs and golf clubs is that men use these for valuable networking opportunities in business and politics, thus excluding women still further from the corridors of power. Whereas the reason why women want to have women only organisations is probably so that they can socialise in an environment where they don't have to deal with the male gaze, sexist behaviour and mansplaining. But it's difficult to legislate for that distinction in reality.

I would, however, question why a trans woman would insist on joining the WI when there are so many mixed sex groups they could join instead. Is it because they really really want to exchange jam recipes and knitting patterns? (Apologies to any WI member reading this if that's not actually what goes on at meetings.) Or is it because they want everyone to validate their identity as a woman?

Because if it's the latter, that's really entitled. You don't have to make everything about you all the time.

Many posters on here have binary thinking that a man is born a man and will forever remain a man despite surgery, hormones and whatever else. Likewise for women. And scientifically, you cant really argue with that.

Well no you can't. Well done for recognising that. Sex IS binary so binary thinking is appropriate, right?

However some commentators prefer to broaden the discussion to consider the psychological and mental aspects of why trans people exist

Well that's a totally different conversation, isn't it? And irrelevant to the safeguarding of women's spaces.

Yes considering why transpeople exist to me shows that it's routed in the same problems feminism would like fixed

Feminism - society is flawed. We shouldn't make assumptions about people based on sex but we should respect that sex exists and ensure that no one is disadvantaged as a result

Transgender- I am flawed because I don't meet the norm for my sex, and I need to be changed to be a better fit to society

This reminds me that Wordscapes will no longer accept the word 'rape.'

Surely it depends on what your definition of trans is? No one definition seems to be accepted by everyone. I know someone who says she's part of the trans community because she rejects female stereotypes (ha!) and is non-binary. How is that not a choice?

You can't though

Being gay is something that can be determined externally - it's how you respond physically to things

Being trans - there is nothing , no objective external universally understood meaning.

And a huge number of women have described how they experienced gender dysmorphia in their youth and their solution was not "oh I am trans" but " fuck the world making me feel like i and wrong and I don't belong" . Many of these women recognise the danger that current "oh yiu can be trans" would have been to them if it had been around whilst their were young

Danger - because most "treatment " these days involves hormones and surgeries that can lead to sterilisation and shortening of life

Personally I find the idea that people / trans allies - who believe that people like me should have been sterilised quite abhorant and threatening

Confused by this statement. I am sure 99.9% of the posters on this forum would also welcome a trans person into their air B&b if they owned one. Not wanting to get undressed in front of a trans woman does not imply not willing to be friendly towards them in a public setting.

I have just tried to find a justification about why we should all be pro-trans without question. Granted, I haven’t been looking for long but I do consider myself to be open minded and will happily change my stance on something if I feel a good argument and/or evidence is presented.

The first article I found was called ‘why trans women belong in women’s spaces’

https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2022/06/10999784/trans-women-public-spaces

It ended up being a waffling, over emotional piece that contained (as far as I could tell) only two reasons why TW belong in women’s spaces and they are thus:

1. 90% of male violence towards women is perpetrated by someone they know.
2. They did it in Ireland and the sky didn’t fall in

My reaction to that-

So, on the first point - what about the other 10%? And of the 90%, how many of these incidents took place simply because the male had access to the female in order to commit the crime in the first place? How much would these statistics change if we have access to women’s spaces to all that wanted to use them? Which leads me on to…

Point 2 - no stats referenced here… however, following the TWAW rhetoric, even if there was an increase in violence against women by TW that now have access to their space, this would be reported as a crime committed by a woman… and so the stats would ever remain favourable towards giving TW access to those spaces…

Do you understand how Airbnb works?

Please post an example of what makes you believe that enough posters would not allow transgender people to stay at their BnB if they had one?

Perhaps you have misunderstood poster’s positions if you think this.

You're either sexually attracted to someone or you're not. If the only people you are sexually attracted to are people of the same sex, then congratulations, you're gay.

There are no situations in society where we segregate gay people from straight people. Gay people being gay have zero impact on other people's ability to live their lives. Some people might not like seeing a same sex couple kissing or holding hands in the street, or they might feel that the sanctity of the institution of marriage is impacted by allowing same sex couples to marry. But their own rights are not eroded in any way by gay people having equal rights. And that is all gay people have ever asked for: equal rights.

Now as for whether being trans is a choice or not, I'd say that's complicated. Part of the problem is that we are using "trans people" as an umbrella term to refer to, collectively, people like Jackie Green (who started identifying as a girl in early childhood, probably thanks to a homophobic father who thought letting his son play with dolls would make him gay), autistic teenage girls who showed no signs of gender distress until adolescence before suddenly expressing a desire to opt out of womanhood, heterosexual men who suddenly decide they are women in middle age having married and fathered children, people like Eddie Izzard (who used to just consider himself a cross dresser) and people like Karen White and Isla Bryson (hopefully no explanation necessary). Clearly the reasons why these different groups of people are identifying as trans are not the same. And once again, it's the teenage girl cohort who are most damaged by treating them as the same, because pretty much all the medical research on paediatric transitioning was conducted on male subjects. Either way, I think it's clear that some of these people are in genuine distress (and the appropriate form of care may or may not be medically transitioning) but others are not and have effectively "chosen" this path.

Regardless of whether it is "chosen" or not, the main difference between gay people and trans people is that the rights sought by trans people are rights no other group has (namely the right to access single sex spaces and sports for the opposite sex) and which have a directly harmful impact on women and other minority groups with characteristics they definitely have not chosen.

If using single sex spaces corresponding to their own biological sex really is unthinkable for trans people, they need to be campaigning for their own spaces. And if being referred to by their biological sex is so distressing, they need to come up with their own vocabulary to describe what they are, rather than appropriating the only words we have to refer to the opposite sex and leaving the opposite sex without the language to clearly identify themselves.

And of course, the "trans rights" issue also has a specific impact on gay people. Not just lesbian dating apps being inundated with male users, but also children being encouraged to transition when the best evidence we have suggests that if left well alone they would grow up to be perfectly normal gay or lesbian adults, with all their body parts intact.

If you made it to the end of this post and still think there's no difference between gay people and trans people, I'm not sure what more I can say to convince you.

This is simple hyperbole and a complete misrepresentation of the vast vast majority of posters who are sex realists concerned about female and young people safeguarding. I’m quite offended by your characterisation. Saying so suggests that you have not read this thread. I thought you were someone open to discussion going by one of your posts but perhaps not. Do you not care about any of these posts raising concerns? What about sport? Do you feel that concerns about TW playing in female categories are wrong?

Utter nonsense.
Not wanting men in women only spaces does not make us bigots despite what people like you would like to claim.
If I was running a womens only establishment then ANY man would be politely but firmly turned away whatever he was wearing and called himself

Can you please explain further here @Kissingthewookie? because I am still not seeing the relevance as to why we should consider why people are trans when making laws and guidance to protect female people.

Same here.

It basically comes down to "keeping female people safe is less important than making male people happy".

Are we supposed to applaud?

Airbnb hosts are forbidden by the company to discriminate (positively or negatively) on the grounds of “race, color, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, or marital status.” So…congratulations for following the rules of an organization you voluntarily joined?

Just on the Ireland point, it seems timely to note that Barbie Khardashian, a 'transwoman' who was housed in limerick women's prison for a few years is now back on trial for threatening murder / seriously harm two women on a few separate occasions. I believe some of these threats happened while he was in prison with them, but the media is cagey on that. According to witnesses, Barbie would scream sexual abuse at women from his cell while incarcerated there.

If found guilty, presumably the judge will be weighing up whether to send him back to the same women's prison.

In Ireland, the National Women's Council of Ireland has a man who identifies as a woman on it. Unsurprisingly, they define woman as anyone who 'identifies' as one. They have been totally silent on the issue.

So that's what's happening in Ireland. A veritable bed of roses. 🙄

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

This is a very interesting read regarding crime and prisons.

"Statistics show that transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality. We conclude that transwomen in prison exhibit a propensity to sexual crime that matches their birth sex and not their gender identity."

Which is exactly why women's spaces need to be protected.

Trans "women" exhibit traits linked to their biology.

An estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

I have read this thread and that is not at all what people have been saying. Everyone has pretty much said I support trans people but here is my red line. Some people take the view that TWAW, are a woman the second the dress and makeup goes on and if you dare deviate at all you are a transphobe [I guess you fall into that camp?]. However, Pretty much most people on the thread have said they are trans allies (as is the point of the thread) but do not agree with them in single sex spaces/ sport etc. I think lots of people have made very clear and politely reasoned arguments

So, how do you know if they're trans? Do you ask them? Do they tell you? Do they flash you with their feminine willies upon check in? I thought they wanted to live quietly and just blend in?

To clarify - I am a lone female host and have guests to stay in my home. Airbnb allows hosts living alone to specify that they will host guests of their gender. I only accept women.

But and it’s a big but, we cannot refuse trans people. Not that I’d want to anyway.

All the trans women I’ve had here have told me when they booked. They fear being turned away or being in an unsafe situation. That makes me sad.

If you are going to a multi room Airbnb accommodation which states women only, be aware the host cannot refuse trans women or they will be kicked off the platform.

What id like is for companies to be forced by law to make it clear that males may be present.