Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

Interesting. Please could you explain this in ordinary language? Not everyone is as well versed in the science as you evidently are.

I think you’ll find these were overwhelmingly MALE comments against gays, not FEMALE comments.
And illustrates perfectly how it’s MEN who need to be educated to #be kind

Exactly. My memory too.

And because men feel bad about their past shitty behaviour, women are now supposed to ignore biological facts and their instincts about their own safety? Well screw that.

with thanks to Arabella for providing a bunch of evidence.

But no, none of those people should be asked about having males in women's services

because women's services are for women. there's no need to consult on that

if some men don't like the men's services that are available to them, then they should club together and get services they do like

but they should stay the fuck out of women's services because they're for women

fuck me woman, have some self respect. we're allowed our own stuff

YY @WomensRightsRenegade, great post.

Whilst keeping toilets and changing rooms same sex is extremely important I think this is sometimes cling on to by some as "See! You bigots are genital obsessed!".

The dangers of swallowing the lie that humans can change sex is damaging mainly to women and girls in so many other ways and it's fucking staggering that it's apparently collateral damage -

Women's places in sports and shortlists being taken by often mediocre biological men,

The possibility that my lovely old mum may have to have intimate care while in a medical setting from a biological man, against her wishes, because he says he's a woman and if she objects she's a bigot

Rape victims having to share a safe space with biological men, apparently if you "reframe your trauma " it's all hunky dory

Cass thankfully means this is slowing down but so many young people being put on in evidenced medical and surgical pathways to validate the lie that humans can change sex.

How the fuck can this be acceptable?

What would happen if I identified as a trans woman and tried to access a trans woman only support group, even though I am a woman 🤔

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Well, exactly. How is that supposed to work?
In what other situations can people just claim they’re whatever they want to be and others have no choice but to take their word for it? Especially if it has consequences for others.

I think ultimately it comes down to what you believe the motivations are of "trans women" and whether you believe it's sexually motivated or not.

I find the notion that straight males like myself would transition and it not be motivated by sexual fetish to be completely ludicrous, to be honest. Feminine gay men, I could easily buy into that not being a sexual thing. Straight men though? I cannot believe anyone could be so gullible as to believe it's not a fetish, the naiveté blows my mind.

So no, I don't think women (or anyone else for that matter) should be compelled to play along with it. Keep it in the bedroom.

This I assume:

What about androgynous women? Are we chucking them out of the toilets too, in case “female people interpret their presence as that of a male person”?

No, to the transphobes in here as long as you're born with a foof then you are safe and allowed in, no matter what you look like.

@DianeAbbotsJamjars

Why do you think who is "allowed in a women's toilet" would be about what an actual woman looks like? Mind blowing sexist stereotypes.

'a foof'

right you are

I'm struggling to understand what's wrong with the position you describe though. sounds fine to me?

More fundamentally it comes down to women saying "no" and men treating that as if we're issuing a challenge to be overcome rather than what it is: a boundary they must respect.

Are you unable to follow threads? I was replying to PP who was asking about androgynous looking females.

Androgenous female people are female people without male body cues. They are also likely to have female voices. What part of this do you have trouble with?

You have tried to claim an absolutist position. That position has been acknowledged by female people who have chosen to modify their bodies with testosterone to be one that requires sensitivity to be shown towards potentially distressed female people. Yet you are here ‘whatabouting’ with anything that you can think of.

How about instead of male people demanding to access female single sex spaces all male people over about 8 years old respect the needs of female people and find their own solutions and keep out of female single sex spaces? Then we wouldn’t be having this ldiscussion.

'No, to the transphobes in here as long as you're born with a foof then you are safe and allowed in, no matter what you look like.'

Ooooh we can't say 'm*s' but we can say 'foof'! The irony!

@Helleofabore would you expect a post operative MTF woman (complete with a pair of breasts and to all intents and purposes a functional vagina) to go into a mens communal changing room in a leisure centre facility?

I have known one transgender woman personally and she was terribly, terribly damaged. She should never have been allowed to transition, it absolutely ruined her life. She was terribly abused as a child and no longer wanted a penis because of it, so she decided she was a transwoman and had full surgery. She sadly will never 'pass' as a woman because she was over 40 when she fully transitioned, and at that point was a 6ft5 man with hands like shovels and a voice deeper than many men I know.

She should have been offered therapy, and support, not mutilated.

I find it very difficult to support trans rights when I see so many people who are 'damaged' in some way suddenly identifying as transgender, and the narrative is that they are absolutely right to seek 'gender affirming' care, rather than seeking support and therapies for the significant trauma they have suffered.

How would a woman know they have has surgery? Even with surgery trans women look like men. I would still feel uncomfortable getting changed with them there so basically I would have nowhere to get changed.

Yes, if they wanted to. They are male people and other male people should be accepting of their presence. If they feel they want privacy, they should seek an alternative space. They should not be in female single sex spaces because they feel they cannot be in male spaces.

Would you like to tell me what the difference is between the male you described and a male who has had their penis removed due to injury or disease? What is it exactly that makes one acceptable in female spaces in your mind over the other male?

And please don’t say breasts because a male can have breast development or even significant pectoral development without having a transgender identity.

Are you unable to follow threads? I was replying to PP who was asking about androgynous looking females.

I'm perfectly able to follow, just remarking on your apparent surprise that many women here think all women and no men should use women's spaces, and it isn't about looks.

Didnt you see the photos of successful trans women I posted earlier in the thread. They are not all pitmen.

Women's spaces are not and should never be a haven for men scared of men. No matter what mutilations they have had.

Men need to be nicer to other men who don't fit their narrow band of what men look like.