To say a massive well done to the people of France...

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

For telling the far right National Rally to fuck off to the far side of fuck!!!

So relieved!

You should not be relieved. You should worry. The problems brought up by National Rally et al are not going away, and the populists won a lot of seats. As they did in the EU parliament. They are being ignored but they are pointing out pertinent issues on unfettered immigration, green policies that will bankrupt farmers and those who, as the gillet jaunes famously said: are not worried about the end of the world but the end of the month. The same applies here - though Reform is yards more right wing than some of the French parties who are certainly not into privatising health care.
In the meantime, Hungary (and to an extent Poland) are defying the EU on immigration issues and pushing hard to stop what amounts to a cultural invasion of Europe by immigrants who do not hold European values (rights for women, democracy, freedom of religions etc).

Well I guess JB already is French. I doubt they intended to revoke citizenship for those who already have it, They wanted to remove the automatic right to it going forward. Just because something used to happened in the past, doesn't mean it needs to keep happening forever more. I never understand that logic.

'But your parents were immigrants' was always thrown at Suella Braverman, Pritti Patel and Rishi Sunak, whenever they talked about reducing immigration. But the situation was rather different in the 1970's wasn't it? We could still see a doctor when we needed to. We could walk out of school at 16 on a Friday afternoon and be in a new job by Monday. The job would come with a proper contract and some company benefits. Imagine that? We could work our way up without a degree and buy a little house by our 20s. And if we couldn't stretch to that, we could get a council house. The past is a foreign country, as they say.

We didn't recycle stuff then either, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it now.

I am aware that they don't have an absolute majority but that's the sort of damage they'd be wanting to inflict if they did. It's still not going to be pretty.

Because that's what free speech requires. You may hate what they say but you must protect their right to say it, because if you do not when the censors have finished with them they will be coming for someone near you.

It's left-wing culture wars here, for the most part. E.g. de-colonization (dump UK history), BLM, trans ideology, supporting Hamas etc. are all left-wing.

Hungary under Orban is certainly NOT trying to defend .'European values (rights for women.... freedom of religions)' and neither was Poland until they recently turned round and defeated the Law and Justice party.

Orban has explicitly expressed his aim of creating an 'illiberal democracy' and 'breaking with the dogmas and ideologies that have been adopted by the West' - i.e. he is not in favour of modern European values. As far as 'women's rights', he is promoting large families and restricting attitudes to abortion. As far as 'freedom of religions', he is strongly anti-secularism and wants to impose Christianity on education and society. He is anti-gay-rights on similar grounds. He subscribes to and promotes antisemitic conspiracy theories about Soros.

The former Polish government had very similar views; thank goodness they were finally defeated.

The far left won't be good for France their demands are ridiculous and will lead to France being like Greece was a few years ago.

It’s nothing really to do with the people of France, a number of candidates tactically withdrew which resulted in the hard right coming third in an election with no absolute winner.,Frances voting system saved them from the far right but it’s potentially out of the pan into the fire. The people of France initially voted for a hard right government. this means a substantial proportion of the French voters want a hard right Government.

This is phenomenon being repeated across Europe. We need to understand why this is and listen and act of concerns of those voting hard right.

We’ve seen on here Reform voters being called stupid, being called bigots. No one is listening to the very real concern and experiences people have. This attitude is driving people to the extremes of politics )right and left)

Those calling people who vote thick and bigoted are a very real part of the problem.

But nobody is trying to censor people with
obnoxious far right views. Nobody is preventing them from expressing themselves, nor indeed from voting for who they want to. Literally nobody here is arguing here against the basic principle of free speech.

When people on the far right complain that the left wing are "not tolerant" of their views, they are not actually saying that anyone has tried to gag them or prevent them from speaking. They are complaining, instead, about the fact that people don't respect their views, that people hate what they stand for and that people judge them for their beliefs. They are objecting to the strength of criticism that is frequently levelled against their opinions and at the strong responses that their statements so often elicit.

To be clear, people on the far right absolutely have the right to spout whatever shit they like. They can argue that the sky is green, the earth is flat, the king is a lizard and that voting Reform is a reasonable choice, and as long as they stay within the boundaries of the law, then I will absolutely defend their right to say those things. However, the rest of us also have the right to freedom of speech, and this means that we are free to criticise, judge or dismiss their morally repugnant views as we see fit.

Freedom of speech and democracy are frequently brought up in those debates, but people are not being silenced or disenfranchised in any way. The Reform types are merely grumbling that those on the left are apparently "supposed to be tolerant" and they think this means that others should accept their racism, misogyny and homophobia as reasonable and valid beliefs. For most of us, it would not be morally acceptable to pretend that such beliefs are acceptable and we are not willing to compromise our own right to free speech in order to make some morally deficient people feel better about their despicable choices.

I am neither homophobic or racist but l am right whats wrong with wanting to control your own borders l am sure all you lefties lock your doors and windows at night to keep out intruders so why is it okay to allow mostly young men to invade our shores when they are perfectly safe in France they are economic migrants and they should be deported as soon as possible l say take care of our own first if that makes me far right so be it,

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

"those on the left are apparently "supposed to be tolerant" and they think this means that others should accept their racism, misogyny and homophobia as reasonable and valid beliefs. For most of us, it would not be morally acceptable to pretend that such beliefs are acceptable and we are not willing to compromise our own right to free speech in order to make some morally deficient people feel better about their despicable choices."

There are several issues with this, 37% of the French voters, voted for RN. Are all these voters racists, homophobic and misogynistic, beyond redemption? Or alternatively can they be persuaded to follow a more centrist path.

By understanding what factors are driving their votes and addressing them is a far better means of logical counter argument and persuading them rather than simply insulting them as racists, homophobes, misogynistic etc.

Especially as a large number of them don't even see themselves as racists, homophobes or misogynists, even if the left does.

We’ve seen on here Reform voters being called stupid, being called bigots. No one is listening to the very real concern and experiences people have

My Dsis voted for Reform. Her very real concern consisted of complete bollocks. She lives in an area with very little immigration and zero asylum seekers, yet that’s the reason she’s waiting to see a hospital consultant. She reckons asylum seekers get given £100 a day and put up in 5* hotels. They get off the boats and claim benefits.

It’s very difficult to listen when people’s concerns are made up codswallop. It’s like a cult. You can offer a person proof that we don’t have open borders, immigrants are vetted before they’re given a visa to come here or in the case of asylum seekers, once they’re here. If we had open borders why do they risk their lives crossing the channel in a paddling pool? Why not just jump on a cheap easy jet flight? Asylum seekers can’t claim benefits but they are given £49 a week to live on. The ones in my area live in crappy apartment blocks that would never be rented out to the general public because they are unfit for habitation. Reform supporters don’t want to have their views challenged with facts. They just want to look for a scapegoat for all their problems.

It’s worth mentioning that there are about half a million American, Canadian, New Zealanders and Australians living in the UK. That’s more than the number of asylum seekers we’ve had in a decade. Reform voters never mention this particular demographic. I wonder why?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

"They are objecting to the strength of criticism that is frequently levelled against their opinions and at the strong responses that their statements so often elicit. "

But the strength of criticism isn't even well structured, it's student level politics of shouting racist, fascists etc .

I would have far more respect if the counter argument was based on points such as how unrealistic the economic policies were of RN by being some €100 billion unfunded or that on their policy of returning migrants convicted of crimes, how is that supposed to work in practice when we've seen how unworkable the Rwanda scheme was.

But instead we just get "lefties losing it" screaming racists, fascists etc which just pushes more in the centre towards the extremes.

I am neither homophobic or racist but l am right whats wrong with wanting to control your own borders l am sure all you lefties lock your doors and windows at night to keep out intruders so why is it okay to allow mostly young men to invade our shores when they are perfectly safe in France they are economic migrants and they should be deported as soon as possible l say take care of our own first if that makes me far right so be it,

The more right wing party ( The Conservatives ) had 14years to deal with this issue did they not ? they took us out of the EU on the promise that this would reduce immigration. And yet they left power with record breaking immigration levels ? Their biggest problem was that they knew we needed immigrants, a large proportion of whom are students, as well as people who have come from all around the World to work here perfectly legally.
What they did was to concentrate on the very small proportion of people who have crossed the Channel by means of small boats or in the back of lorries. They chose to do this because they wanted some of the people who voted for them to see an 'enemy' in these people, it was a cause to get behind whilst ignoring the massive elephant, stood on a great big bus, playing a trumpet whilst simultaneously singing the National anthem in 47 different languages !!

Farage also wants women back in the home child rearing and said he wouldn’t want a woman by his side ‘going over the top’ in a war. He sees Andrew Tate as a good role model for boys. He’s a misogynistic prick and doesn’t give a shit about you, or anyone else outside of his elite, wealthy circle. He sees himself as superior. He’s a manipulative man, seeking power and fame for his own agenda.

Whether you call him a fascist or Humpty Dumpty a vote for him is a massive step back for feminism, women’s rights and progressive policy.

Orban is holding the line against non-Christian values. And yes, he is promoting families and without doubt, I disagree with him on abortion. But if Europe does not hold its line and protect its civilization, we won't be worrying about abortion rights, but women's rights and safety. Have you all forgotten the incidents in Germany a few years back, at New Year celebrations? Have you not read of grooming gangs in Rochdale? Have you not heard of punishment rape in Waziristan?

This is the problem. So much misinformation and he doesn’t care about lying or misrepresenting the truth if it gets him the fame and power he craves.

The left - or sections of it - have been trying to censor women for the last several years, or anyone who disagrees with the homophobic, misogynist trans ideology that is now a fashionable leftist cause.
My comment was in reply to someone who did want to silence the right, or at least suggested they did.

You are missing the point entirely and therefore part of the problem using words like codswallop to describe your Dsis perspectives. Why has she reached these conclusions? What you need to be looking at is a far wider effect on ways of life, often unconscious feelings of a threat to the tribe. Coupled with concerns about global warming and how this will affect resources (and how AI will affect job availability) people are becoming more wary about outsiders. These concerns and feelings of being under threat will find various outlets. Because they are often unconscious people have a hard time articulating these.

Why do people not complain about Americans etc coming in? They are highly likely to be economically self sufficient (no one is claiming Asylum from Denver. They are likely to arrive with insurance.

Their culture is also likely to line up with ours in most important areas. There is generally not a language barrier.

This is phenomenon being repeated across Europe. We need to understand why this is and listen and act of concerns of those voting hard right.

Understand? Nonsense. Far easier to just call them all racists.

Are 37% of the French population racist? I don't know, it would certainly seem that 37% of those who bothered to vote are that way inclined. Of course, some will not be intelligent enough to understand what they're voting for, but the National Rally aren't exactly subtle about what they stand for, so I think that number must be fairly small.

And of course, they may not see themselves as racist. People rarely do, but if you vote for a racist party with at least a basic understanding of the decision that you're making, I think that makes you racist, yes.

And yes, I absolutely agree that it is sensible to understand the factors that contribute to far right radicalisation, and we need to try and tackle these so that those who are susceptible are less likely to get sucked into this kind of thing in the first place, but deprogramming those who have already been radicalised probably requires specialist intervention. I'm not sure that mainstream society normalising their beliefs is going to make them change their minds.

The last time I put forward arguments about the regressive nature of Reform's proposed tax policies were, the Reform voters that I was talking to didn't appear to understand the point and weren't capable of engaging with it.

Many of us have tried arguing with the far right for many years, but I am increasingly reaching conclusion that they are beyond reason. Prejudice isn't based on rational argument and generally can't be countered by it from what I've seen.

You were replying to me and I wasn't suggesting that I wanted to silence the right at all.

My favourite of Reform’s tax policies was exempting all NHS front line staff earning less than £50k from paying any tax. Completely bonkers and guaranteed to attract clinicians here from all over the world.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

"Prejudice isn't based on rational argument and generally can't be countered by it from what I've seen."

I completely agree.

I have tried time and again to explain that calling right wing voters racists, fascists, homophobes, thick, uneducated, white, misogynistic etc is not a rational counter argument and insults tend not to be effective in bringing people round to your point of view.

But the prejudice and faux sense of superiority of the left wing against voters sympathetic to the right wing is too deep to be countered from what I've seen.