To think LTB is not as simple...

[JustAnotherHappyFatty]

as it is often made out to be on here?
Just reading yet another thread with a completely useless husband and predictably most of the comments are along the lines of 'just LTB' and 'he will have to pay maintenance and have the kids 50/50 so you will get a rest'.
Firstly, how does anyone on here know how much maintenance the OP would be entitled to? In my case, taking into account my husbands earnings I would receive about £10pw....I couldn't feed the dogs with that amount! Other predictable comments include things like 'don't worry, you are entitled to half the equity in the house and his pension '. Great, we have about 20K in the house if we are lucky and he has less than 10K in a pension, I couldn't buy another property on my own and would soon burn through the equity trying to keep up with the extortionate rent on the three bed properties I would require to house my kids.
Secondly, why do people assume 'he will have to have the kids'. Plenty of Ex husbands don't have their kids overnight, never mind genuinely 50/50! As far as I am aware there is no way to force them to parent their children in the event of a separation from their mother, a lot of posters assume these men want to parent their children but if they are not doing it in the relative comfort of the marital home they are certainly not going to suddenly step up and do it alone.
AIBU to think that whilst posters mean well that their opinions come from a place of huge privilege (large amounts of equity in their property, high earning husbands with traceable funds from which they can take CM and reasonable husbands that would actually want to see their children in the event of separation)?
I don't want to leave my DH but I am acutely aware that I would be fucked if I did!

You are fortunate to be in that position. Many mothers are not. I would not blame them for not taking your advice.

This means there would be a proportion of women that simply don’t have kids due to this, and that’s okay.

Is it okay, though?

Telling a woman that she needs to just suck it up and never have children, rather than take a chance having children without the luxury of complete financial independence seems unrealistic.

I think the proportion of women that have kid and give up work without ending up in abusive/shit relationships is a lot higher than those that do. Women are naturally going to play those odds and hope that they're not going to end up in that situation.

If you read my comment upthread, I LTB with not a penny to my name so I did indeed take my own advice.

LTB is a simple solution in a lot of cases, that doesn't mean that it's easy to do, but I do think in most cases where it's advised on MN, the relationship is draining so much from OP that it outweighs any financial concerns.

I would rather rent and be on benefits than stay with some of the husbands described on here because I was worried about losing money invested into a house. Yes it would be painful to let that go if I had initially invested it thinking it would be security for my/the kids' future. But in the end a safe home free from emotional and verbal abuse and emotional insecurity, and my own mental health is all far far more important for children than finances or a house.

I also think sometimes people give the maintenance/contact time argument because it can make you think - if we split up, the expectation would be that he would pay X and see the children Y - why is he doing much less than this while we're together?

My ex is included in the "men I would not live with again for any money in the world" but not quite the same situation as I had nothing when I left so I didn't lose anything.

It’s a far more complicated situation usually yes. Equally, I get the impression it’s hard work trying to understand it all. A friend of mine and her husband are splitting up and her plan was 50/50 with the kids and then once they’ve established any benefits she can get they total up monthly income and they both get half. I’ve no idea how feasible that even is.

If you read my comment that you quoted you will see I said "most" mothers. So, I assume you must be one of the mothers not included in "most".

Obviously, there will be women living with a man whose behaviour is so intolerable that they have to leave, but they are not the ones I am talking about.

Posters are often told to LTB in circumstances that could be resolved or in which leaving would make their lives harder. I believe most women would not leave in those circumstances however adamantly they advise posters on here to LTB.

It's very easy to offer "good" advice when you are not the person having to take it. It's much harder when you are the one taking the advice and living with the consequences.

I was not happy with my daughter's father, but he loves her and in a strange, selfish way, loved me too. Our lives would have been much harder without him.

I am pleased to be divorced from him now, but I still think I did the right thing for myself and daughter by staying with him until my daughter was old enough that I could separate from her father without causing her (or me) hardship.

@ThisOldThang Telling a woman that she needs to just suck it up and never have children, rather than take a chance having children without the luxury of complete financial independence seems unrealistic

You view it as unrealistic, I view it as sensible.

If I had complained about my now ex and been told LTB I would have looked at the practical fallout and assumed it wasn't possible. Then he upped and left for ow so I had no choice. He does somewhat less that eow and pays CMS only. Yes I was "lucky" in that I have a degree and a professional salary but that didn't fall into my lap. My mum desperately wanted to leave my dad when I was small but couldn't due to finances and her lack earning capacity. The thing she drummed into me was to learn and earn enough to never be trapped. Post divorce, I earn enough to support my household though obvs not as comfortable as it would have been and the mediator / solicitors sorted the mess. Ex is actually far worse off than I am now due to circumstances.
I would say it's rarely actually impossible but just seems like an undoable shift in circumstances. As pp have said, the crucial thing is to make women aware of the dangers of not having the potential to support themselves.

This exactly. It's the reality for many many people. And I'm saying that as someone who DID LTB through domestic abuse. I wasn't married to him so got nothing from the house and he didn't bother to see his kids at all ( even told his mother to forget she had grandchildren - lucky she's much nicer and ignored that) As for child maintenance I received the grand sum of £15 over a period of 16 years for 2 children

Posters are often told to LTB in circumstances that could be resolved or in which leaving would make their lives harder

I just don’t see that tbh: I’ve said it before but I have yet to see a LTB on here which wasn’t deserved. And women’s bias is so skewed towards staying (because society is usually telling them to stay) that the LTB may be the one thing preserving their sanity.

In the vast majority of cases the women posting knows she wants out already, she is just looking for permission.

And she may not be able to “afford it” in the short term but she will post divorce.

I remember a thread on here a while ago where someone was in an awful position, where she was being abused and was clearly traumatised by her partner. What she needed was building up to have the confidence to leave. One poster posted "we told you to LTB, why haven't you done it yet?" Another poster pointed out that the thread was only about 30 mins old and LTBing in that time was not really practical.

I think that is one thing that gets me is that sometimes someone frozen with fear in a relationship start a thread and posters are often quite aggressive with their advice - the lack of understanding is staggering. Someone is paralysed with fear, so I'll just give her the benefit of my lack of experience and all but say "eff you" if the OP doesn't leap to it.

I'm not saying the bastard doesn't often deserve to be left or punished for his behaviour in some way, but it's not necessarily the best thing for the family.

I did LTB, but not until it best suited my daughter and me. We were fortunate in that he was a selfish, pathetic drunk rather than a violent and abusive one. He was also kind and loving when sober. If he had been violent or abusive, I would have left him sooner.

I disagree that the vast majority posting on here are already wanting out. I think many are looking for reasons to stay.

When they are told to LTB, they often start making excuses for him, or explaining why they can't leave. The LTB chorus then gets louder and attacks the posters for "having no self-respect" and other unkind jibes.

This.

I earn a good living and dh is a very high earner. I don’t want to leave my husband and I know he wouldn’t be a dick with money (mainly because I deal with all of our finances and investments) and he’d also continue to fund school and uni etc, but we would definitely take a hit financially by separating. Surely that’s just common sense.

@DelythBeautyQueen

I'm not saying the bastard doesn't often deserve to be left or punished for his behaviour in some way, but it's not necessarily the best thing for the family.

It is the best thing for the family in the long term though. It’s always going to be painful and traumatic and can take several years to get through but remaining with an abusive partner, or one with drink issues or one who neglects the needs of his family is never the best outcome. It invariably damages women and children.

You ask anyone whose parents “stayed together for the children”. Without exception they will say they wish their parents had separated.

I’m not minimising how hard this is. But people saying they can “work through it as a family” or whatever are lying to themselves and kicking the can down the road.

LTB is not intended to give people a free pass or telling them it’s going to be easy. It’s allowing them to hold onto that small piece of sanity in their soul that tells them they deserve better and give them the impetus to make it better. It’s extremely powerful.

I would say most cry’s of LTB on here are not wrong though I take the point it may be financially difficult. I’ve come to realise financial dependence on another person is always risky.

You ask anyone whose parents “stayed together for the children”. Without exception they will say they wish their parents had separated.

If you start by asking me I'll tell you that my parents did not have a happy marriage, but I am extremely grateful to my father for not leaving before my siblings and I had grown up. So, there's one exception for you.

Also, my daughter loves her father, despite his faults and I know for certain she would not have wanted us to split up while she was still a child. She's not particularly happy about it even now, but she understands why it's happened.

Now you have two exceptions.

I'm not arguing that anyone should remain in abusive or neglectful relationships, (although a lot of people do), but I think there are often reasons for remaining in a less than perfect relationship while you have young children. In the real world that is what happens, whether we think it should or not.

In the real world that is what happens, whether we think it should or not.

It is what happens, yes. And maybe there are situations where people would prefer that two parents who loathe each other stay together. But there are at least as many where they prefer the parents split. And it’s only the “real world” because people insist on doing it to themselves again and again and again.

From my experience divorce and separation isn’t intrinsically traumatic. What’s traumatic is:

• Bitterness and toxicity between parents (and frankly that can happen both within and in the aftermath of a marriage)
• Financial hardship as a result of separation, along with children’s world’s being destabilised due to moving home and changes to contact etc

I fervently believe that two people who are unhappy married would be happier separated and would be better able to provide for their children separated.

But that relies on decency of conduct between the parents and also, fundamentally, for the woman and children not to be left financially disadvantaged. The decent conduct and the financial part are also intimately connected because a large proportion of the bitterness that arises in divorce is down to one party (usually the woman) being left financially disadvantaged.

Which is why we come back to how absolutely critical it is that the woman keeps her job at all costs. If there’s such a thing as a silver bullet in marriage it’s this.

Are men fortunate to be in the position to provide for themselves too? Or is it just women?

I wouldn't have had children if it wasn't possible for me to financially provide for them. It's obviously a risk that some women decide to take but it's a choice.

i think it does no harm to advise a daughter not to have children unless she really really wants them. And that remaining child free is a viable life choice.

Yes. The same would apply to men who are single parents, but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of single parents are women.

Many women take the risk of relying financially on their partner and as I said in my first reply, most are willing to put up with a certain amount of selfish behaviour from the fathers of their young children. For some it is better than LTB and some it's not. Either way, it's not an easy decision and for others who have the luxury of not having to choose, it is easy to tell others what they should do.

I agree with you OP. I also think that the term "abuse" and "narcissist" is used too liberally on here as well.

Many women do take the risk. I didn't and wouldn't, I don't think that's a luxury or privileged. It's simply making a different choice.

There's a reason people who aren't lawyers shouldn't give legal advice!

I am a lawyer. Not a family lawyer though so I'd never tell anyone on here what they'll get as I don't know.

About this though:

just LTB' and 'he will have to pay maintenance and have the kids 50/50 so you will get a rest'.

That is nonsense: if the dad has the kids 50/50 you get no maintenance. Who is paying him for his half of having the kids? My sister found that out. 50/50 = no maintenance.

I've seen this exact question posted before.
Obviously, when a woman posts a thread about their bad relationship, abusive or just unpleasant husband etc (usually without giving full details of her financial situation, understandably) people are going to say she should LTB. By which they mean 'This behaviour/situation merits ending the relationship', not 'I expect you to drop everything and leave straight away, because I assume every woman is in a position to do that'.

Yes, of course there will always be a few people jumping to conclusions and giving some unrealistic advice, but mostly they are just reacting to the behaviour the OP has described. I've rarely seen an LTB I've disagreed with.

I agree with you. If it was simple, people wouldn't put up with half the stuff they do, and this is even when accounting for things like mixed feelings, guilt, grief and sadness at ending a relationship.

It's not something I really talk about, and I love my DP very much, but in our 11 years together, there was one point where I was really considering splitting up. Not for lack of love, but because his MH was very bad, I was struggling too, the DC were very young and there just wasn't time to take in how quickly we had gone from being very happy to extremely worried about the future and how we could go on.

During that time (coming up with practical solutions is my anxiety coping mechanism), I spent several hours dedicated to figuring out the logistics of a split. It was extremely difficult to come up with a satisfactory solution. Financially, practically, every way you sliced it seemed so much worse than the set up we had living together.

Of course it's all relative, and I think that if you didn't love your partner or had a bad partner, nothing would be worth staying. But being able to look at it in that pragmatic, kind of neutral way (because I didn't have any bad feelings or animosity toward DP), it did show how tough it can be to disentangle lives once children are involved.