To think LTB is not as simple...

[JustAnotherHappyFatty]

as it is often made out to be on here?
Just reading yet another thread with a completely useless husband and predictably most of the comments are along the lines of 'just LTB' and 'he will have to pay maintenance and have the kids 50/50 so you will get a rest'.
Firstly, how does anyone on here know how much maintenance the OP would be entitled to? In my case, taking into account my husbands earnings I would receive about £10pw....I couldn't feed the dogs with that amount! Other predictable comments include things like 'don't worry, you are entitled to half the equity in the house and his pension '. Great, we have about 20K in the house if we are lucky and he has less than 10K in a pension, I couldn't buy another property on my own and would soon burn through the equity trying to keep up with the extortionate rent on the three bed properties I would require to house my kids.
Secondly, why do people assume 'he will have to have the kids'. Plenty of Ex husbands don't have their kids overnight, never mind genuinely 50/50! As far as I am aware there is no way to force them to parent their children in the event of a separation from their mother, a lot of posters assume these men want to parent their children but if they are not doing it in the relative comfort of the marital home they are certainly not going to suddenly step up and do it alone.
AIBU to think that whilst posters mean well that their opinions come from a place of huge privilege (large amounts of equity in their property, high earning husbands with traceable funds from which they can take CM and reasonable husbands that would actually want to see their children in the event of separation)?
I don't want to leave my DH but I am acutely aware that I would be fucked if I did!

@jeaux90

This is why women need to put career and financial independence first, every time.

Thank you. In stone tablets. Never give up your job. It could be the one thing that allows you the freedom you need.

Yeah it's this isnt it? If someone is genuinely at the end of their tether and utterly miserable what else are people supposed to say?

Well it will be too hard to leave so you'll just have to put up with it forever?

I agree LTB is easy to say but if someone is desperately unhappy and living with a selfish dickhead its not really realistic to say he's going to magically change is it so what exactly would you advise people say?

Even the never give up your job thing............. I didn't want to but he earned more than I did and I got coerced into that. so while I agree it's good advice, I think ti's better on these threads not to reprimand women for not having been smarter and more assertive five years ago.

Expecting a man to not be useless is far from expecting perfection.

This thread isn’t actually about OP wanting to leave though.

If just one woman reading considers not giving up their career, it’s absolutely worth mentioning.

I agree there’s no point reprimanding women when it’s too late and I can see how women fall into this pattern.

But there’s still a shocking amount of rhetoric on here about “you’ll never get the time back,” and “why have kids just to farm them out to someone else,” etc etc. Guilting women for trying to safeguard their independence. Making them feel that the loss of their financial independence is a reasonable price to pay for a couple of extra years of looking after small children. So many short termist and backwards attitudes to this still.

There are situations where it makes sense for women not to work when their children are small but they need to come with a very clear health warning and a lot of insurance (mandatory marriage for starters). And there has to be an exit strategy.

And to be honest even if you are going to be hard up and struggling financially it’s still very rarely worth staying in an unhappy relationship for. Women can leave, even if they don’t work, and they should be empowered to do so if they need to.

News flash!!

Just because people give advice doesn't automatically mean any op acts on it.
We are mostly grown up women on here! We won't leave our dp because someone on mn told us too.
It's just useful to get advice, a sense of perspective sometimes etc

'Never give up you job' advice probably falls into the same category - easy to say, harder to do. Ok, 'giving up' your job completely is a bit extreme, but unless you're fairly privileged or lucky, most parents will struggle to maintain two full time jobs with foot on the career accelerator when children come along. Whether it's good advice depends on circumstances. At the extreme of course it's completely appropriate , just like LTB is.

Never give up you job' advice probably falls into the same category - easy to say, harder to do. Ok, 'giving up' your job completely is a bit extreme, but unless you're fairly privileged or lucky, most parents will struggle to maintain two full time jobs

Yes, I feel this is another "easy to say" but when you have to pay for childcare and the childcare costs end up being more than you are actually earning sometimes you cannot stay in your job because you are losing money every month. Sure it might be worth a small loss for a few years but not everyone can afford that and if you have more than 1 child it's really hard. I have two kids and I remember when they were little, early childcare costs were almost double the cost of our mortgage per month!! I have no family to help out and neither does DH so its not "easy" for everyone.

I take your point, OP. I would say though that posters who write about some really heartbreaking stuff are wanting to hear their options and LTB is always one of them. Sometimes it's validation of their rant- that's needed and other times, the situation is so bad that they'll read/take the advice that's offered.

It's not always easy to leave. Sometimes though it is - at the end of it - the only viable option and it is always an option to pick 'least bad'. I read some threads here and wonder how the poster gets out of bed in the morning with that life hanging over them. I know that I couldn't - but as you say, that is with my own circumstances (financial) overlaid onto and OP's situation. Very, very difficult and very different if strictly applied to the actual scenario an OP is faced with.

I do though wonder about OPs from various threads and wonder how they're getting on. If they never post back I hope that they were successful in getting out and are now doing much better.

Useless and perfect are at complete opposite sides of the spectrum so I'm not sure what your point is?

Why is childcare only based on the woman’s income? It should be 50/50 at the very least.

It also seems short sighted giving up your career, future potential earnings, pension etc when the most expensive years of childcare are short in the long run.

If time is on someone’s side, I appreciate that isn’t always possible but if it is, it can also be an option to not have 2 in nursery at the same time.

YANBU no. Unfortuntely though, the reality for women who can't afford to run a house on their own is that they are stuck with this type of man. And the men know it.

My point is that not putting up with a useless man doesn’t mean that you’re expecting perfection.

Most LTB responses I have seen are in response to cheaters (who are probably going to leave on their terms anyway) or to massive red flags signalling abusive partners - often when pregnant or just had a baby. LTB isn't just a throw away comment, it can be life saving advice.

Years ago under an old name in one of my very first posts I gave some actual ideas for working through an op's argument. I was actually laughed off the site and left for a while. It has always felt to me that the MN way is to LTB.

I agree too OP. I made the right decision to leave my ex husband but fuck me, he made my life pure hell for two years. I eventually reported him to the police, cut every method of communication, ended relationships with mutual friends/family who enabled him to continue his abuse, and I demanded that our only contact going forward was through lawyers. I got a court order including a childcare agreement that he’s never once stuck to.

He still makes my life as difficult as possible six years down the line. He barely has anything to do with our children (just like when we lived together). I’ve been told by many naïve posters on here “just tell him to……just force him to…..etc” as though you can force an adult to do anything. He pays me zero child maintenance (people on here assume CMS will force him but there’s loopholes and CMS are toothless enablers). It’s really not as simple as LTB, especially when there’s children involved.

I privately suspect a LOT of posters who jump to ‘leave him! Leave him!’ are overlooking a few things in their own relationship for a multitude of reasons they would never share on here…

DP does things that drive me nuts, and me him. I don’t want to leave him but even if I did (in a kind of indifferent way), would it be worth selling our house, being forced to buy on in a rougher area for affordability, my children therefore changing schools, and all that shit just so I could be single and date other men? Nah

No, it isn't. No-one said it was.

Why is childcare only based on the woman’s income? It should be 50/50 at the very least

It's not but the point is, you may be financially worse off as a family having kids in childcare. We were, which is why I did stop working for a while. Thats what I mean- it's easy to say dont give up your job! but if you cant afford to keep it then you cant afford it and all the warnings in the world arent going to change that.

My friend had her parents look after her son whilst she was at work so that helped her but we didnt have that option- hence it being very individual.

Where is the line drawn then? What is normal human foibles and what is useless? For men and women?

Well there wouldn't be a clear line and it would be subjective but useless and over the top expectations of perfection are pretty far apart.

Useless- doesn't lift a finger to do housework or childcare

Workable- splits childcare 50/50, cleans the house but is disorganised, forgets where they put things and leaves their dirty clothes on the floor when rushing for work

Examples outside of housework/childcare

LTB- obviously any violence. Persistent put downs, isolating from friends and family, financial abuse

Workable- A short period of being snappy when going through a stressful time. Staying out late a few times a year with friends. Feeling disconnected due to lack of effort (likely a lack of effort from both sides even if the poster only recognises the faults of the partner).

I have always acknowledged that my starting position is what you call privilege your OP. My husband and i earn about the same wage and have equity so could just say fuck it and start over if either of us fancied it. Some of that position is through choice though, such as opting not to be a SAHM which retained my earning potential and independence.

But usually a LTB situation isn't talking though about choosing between a lovely happy home and hardship, its talking about choosing between a dire home life and a fresh start which might offer a more peaceful home life hut the cost is comfort.

There is an element of confidence to it. Because if I had a partner who fits the OP description (and I spent years of my youth with a total dickhead who used to shout in my face) I would give up a lot of things in life, right down to skipping meals to avoid having living in the atmosphere of eggshells i used to walk on. And that atmosphere can be created just as easily by a financially abuse man, a man that treats his mates as more important, a man that thinks childcare is womens work...all sorts.

Basically I will always pay the price of freedom never to feel again: will he come home, what mood will he be in, will he act like I'm a nag for asking him to "help", will he be going out drinking.

Stability is so important to mental safety.

Eta- I am often in the LTB gang because I feel like the posters are feeling that sense of instability and its so so soul destroying.

Simple? No. Impossible? Also no.

I LTB. I had a baby, no job, no money, and nowhere to go.

I had to present as homeless and go into a hostel for a while. He was abusive which I appreciate is different than just being a bit useless and I didn't want to "date other men" I wanted a better life for me and my child. I raised DS entirely by myself, he is not involved. The experience though also hardened me to any nonsense from men in future and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if I was ever in a bad relationship, I also have my own council flat in my name only and I'll never put myself in a position again where I'll be homeless and penniless.

Partly why I would never encourage anyone to be a SAHP unless they had access to their own independent money.

Well done, I hope you treat yourself as often as possible