To think LTB is not as simple...

[JustAnotherHappyFatty]

as it is often made out to be on here?
Just reading yet another thread with a completely useless husband and predictably most of the comments are along the lines of 'just LTB' and 'he will have to pay maintenance and have the kids 50/50 so you will get a rest'.
Firstly, how does anyone on here know how much maintenance the OP would be entitled to? In my case, taking into account my husbands earnings I would receive about £10pw....I couldn't feed the dogs with that amount! Other predictable comments include things like 'don't worry, you are entitled to half the equity in the house and his pension '. Great, we have about 20K in the house if we are lucky and he has less than 10K in a pension, I couldn't buy another property on my own and would soon burn through the equity trying to keep up with the extortionate rent on the three bed properties I would require to house my kids.
Secondly, why do people assume 'he will have to have the kids'. Plenty of Ex husbands don't have their kids overnight, never mind genuinely 50/50! As far as I am aware there is no way to force them to parent their children in the event of a separation from their mother, a lot of posters assume these men want to parent their children but if they are not doing it in the relative comfort of the marital home they are certainly not going to suddenly step up and do it alone.
AIBU to think that whilst posters mean well that their opinions come from a place of huge privilege (large amounts of equity in their property, high earning husbands with traceable funds from which they can take CM and reasonable husbands that would actually want to see their children in the event of separation)?
I don't want to leave my DH but I am acutely aware that I would be fucked if I did!

Like I said, it’s often a short sighted way of looking at it. Especially if the higher earner is able to pay for the childcare and the lower earner has earning potential which would be lost as well as other financial losses such as pensions.

@saffronflower

It's not but the point is, you may be financially worse off as a family having kids in childcare. We were, which is why I did stop working for a while.

You will be financially worse off having kids in childcare short term of course bur you’ll almost certainly be better off longer term. Childcare is an investment in a career. It’s hard and not always immediately easy to see the benefits but longer term it will almost always make your family financially better off.

Also as a PP pointed out why is this solely the woman’s cost to absorb? It’s a family investment. A man who refuses to see the value of that investment is not a keeper anyway (unless he’s so wealthy cost isn’t a factor in which case why is he begrudging you the childcare?).

One of the reasons I split from my husband was that he refused to contribute to the cost of childcare even though I had to work. When we split up I had to shoulder the entire cost on my own. It was painful for a couple of years and I got into debt but long term it massively enhanced my earnings.

People take an incredibly short term view of this. Of course you’re going to be poorer paying childcare costs, whether you’re paying alone or as part of a couple but the trick is to see it as investment not a cost. Unless you’re in a job with no career progression in which case you’re better off studying for qualifications. But in no scenario are you better off just stopping work.

Sometimes it is needed to be said.
The op.is going to be f*cked if they stay. Mentally physically or other.

Then the op can consider all options.

Because ltb is an option no matter how hard.
And sometimes maybe op is like what I don't actually want to ltb because....fair. their choice.

But thinking it thru can help.

Another reason I like LTB is because so often an op is so downtrodden they have completely lost sight of what is acceptable. They'll post something absolutely unacceptable their h has done, but in a lighthearted men-huh eye roll style, and then get 90% ltb with 10% Yanbu from posters who have similarly shit husbands and want to believe it's normal. They often don't come back to the thread as it's a shock. Then, it's lovely when they update months later thanking everyone for the wake up call.

@arethereanyleftatall

Another reason I like LTB is because so often an op is so downtrodden they have completely lost sight of what is acceptable

And this too. Most of the time people are gaslighting themselves with a narrative about “marriage is hard work” etc when the husband is an abusive or neglectful arse. But it shouldn’t be hard work.

Few marriages are all roses and sunshine but a marriage that’s “hard work” brings nothing. What’s the point of layering more stress on just to be married? It doesn’t enhance your life at all.

I agree with you op, but what are people meant to say to those kind of posts? You literally cannot change other people, it is impossible. So you can either accept them as they are or leave, those are the only options.

The only time I ever think men from these threads can be changed is when they do no childcare. I think if the woman left the men do their own devices for a few days and they realized how much work childcare is, they would possibly do more.

@trekking1

So you can either accept them as they are or leave, those are the only options.

I think the implicit message of the people who complain about LTB advice is you are meant to accept things “because people don’t want to work at their marriages any more”.

Which is code for “women should shut up and stop complaining”. Because “working on a marriage” with someone who is abusive, has substance abuse issues, cheats or neglects you or just isn’t interested in your needs is a complete waste of time.

Which is why I think we need more LTB, not less.

Just seen wanted to say to this PP in solidarity 'Hear Hear'....

"I nearly lost our home, endured years of financial hardship and even now haven't really recovered mentally or financially from it all.

The only bonus is that I have raised 2 children, basically single handed who now as adults think I'm an absolute hero! We're very close and they are amazing beings. But fk me it was hard! "

Wishing you brighter days ahead and well done for standing up for you and your children.

Yes, and a poster upthread @TiroirSousLeMiroir said that she was frustrated to have given some practical solutions in place of "L-ing TB, and they were ignored.

That level of disconnection from the extent of the problem is telling. To believe that all the woman needs to do is communicate differently, provide solutions, be more practical et cetera, well, that kind of suggestion shows that that poster has never had to appeal for mercy from somebody who is unreachable. You can only ever be reasonable on behalf of your self. You cannot make somebody else be vulnerable, he honest, be less entitled, have more empathy, compromise.....

So when "helpful" posters suggest sitting down at the taɓle and having an honest talk with him, it shows they're not able to fathom the extent of the problem.

Many men don't want solutions. They want all their needs met at your expense. Doh. So don't try and communicate reasonably with them in a way that might expose that really clearly.

It's not only about the cost of childcare. The availability and suitability is also important, especially for children with more individual needs, such as medical appointments. Cost was not a factor for me, I had my children in Scandinavia where childcare is practically free, but one of mine had a medically complex first 4 years so I absolutely had total a step back. They'd spend months at a time in hospital. I did in fact carry on working, but I could not work at the same level or hours. I did a qualification for the flexibility, but that wouldn't be an option in the uk but for the very wealthiest. Keeping working at all costs is too simplistic. It also puts the responsibility of the bad effects onto (mostly) mothers. If successfully raising children depends on an individual working full time constantly no wonder it's all so precarious.

Take a very long time to get to know someone and decide whether they're suitable to have kids with.

I was married ten years to a what someone might call a perfect husband before we had children. I thought I knew him inside out. He turned out to be a liar, a cheat, a gaslighter and someone who has a complete lack of boundaries.

When I had children I realised more than ever the importance of having children with the right man. I'm hoping my STBEXH won't let me down when it comes to raising the children but I've lost all trust in him.

My piece of advice to my daughters will be not to pro-create with a man from a dysfunctional background because that shit keeps getting passed down. I'll be damned if I let it be passed down to them

I've been on MN for ages and have managed to work something out:

LTB is nearly always the right thing to do when put forward as an option in MN threads. Nowhere has it ever been suggested as easy in my experience.

I rather think those who start such threads know this and they come to vent, hear advice, etc. They are not infants and can sift through the responses.

I agree that for people with a comfortable life it can be hard to leave. I have a friend who is staying with her husband until the kids are older. She is degree qualified so has job options but with her husband's money she is able to be SAHM, pick the kids up from their private school every day, take them to their expensive extra curriculars etc. She values this for her kids and doesn't want to change their lifestyle. He owns his own company and she believes if they split he would hide his money in the company and pay himself minimum wage to get out of giving her money. They argue a lot and haven't had sex in years (well she hasn't, he probably is with someone else) and she's open about the fact they are not happy together. But she won't leave due to the impact on the kids. I can't imagine staying with someone who you believe will try to wriggle out of paying for his own kids if you split but I do see why she won't leave. But by the time the kids have grown up she'll be late 50s, or 60s if she waits for him to pay for them through uni. It's a lot of her life to waste with someone she doesn't like.....

I agree OP. There worst is where the support quickly turns to attacks and condemnation if the woman doesn’t immediately agree to leave.

There are real practical barriers to many women leaving. Women deserve to have this recognized. It’s very hard in many parts of the country to even find a landlord who will rent to you. They have their pick of the bunch. And then the rent is extortionate.

CM payments are a pitiful proportion of the man’s income and there are plenty of wheezes men can use to reduce payments.

Women face very difficult choices and they should not be condemned for those.

It sounds like she's financially abusing him. It's dressed up in terms of the kids, but she basically taking the lifestyle while it suits her.

I completely agree with this too. The level of naivety from some posters is breathtaking. Especially the ‘ just sit him down and tell him straight, OP’ posters. Clearly, is this was a situation that could be solved with a good chat, it already would have been. You can’t talk with someone who does not want to listen.

I am really tired of posts which lay the responsibility onto women for a crap situation created by a man

AIBU to think that whilst posters mean well that their opinions come from a place of huge privilege (large amounts of equity in their property, high earning husbands with traceable funds from which they can take CM and reasonable husbands that would actually want to see their children in the event of separation)? I don't want to leave my DH but I am acutely aware that I would be fucked if I did

It’s a hard one as people are giving good advice, it’s just that the horse has bolted when a women has already put herself in such a situation. It’s really advice that should be HAMMERED into girls and young women so they don’t put themselves in such a position in the first place and end up posting ‘easy to say this but I can’t’. That’s the missing piece, to educate to prevent people posting this.

We need to educate girls and young women to not rely on a man financially and especially if they want to factor in children. That does not come from any place of privilege, it’s just common sense to teach them to get their ducks in a row so they will be okay if they find yourself in such a situation where they get zero in any form from a man if they leave (particularly with kids) for whatever reason. This means not having kids until they are in a position to support themselves 100% on their own. Anything else that transpires should be viewed as a 100% bonus and not base case which is where women go wrong. This means there would be a proportion of women that simply don’t have kids due to this, and that’s okay.

I declined a few marriage proposals earlier on in life as I knew the men wanted families sooner than later and I knew that if things went pear shaped it ‘may’ place me in a precarious position. Doesn’t matter what a man earns or how loaded they are (one man was extremely wealthy). You have to factor in no money if you leave as the man:

1. may have wealth tied up in trust or companies where it will be untouchable in event of divorce/CM
2. may develop some weird addiction and gamble millions leaving nothing and no ability to contribute CM, debts may eat into shared assets etc
3. may die or become sick/disabled and unable to work leaving you extremely surprised to learn there is nothing, and as one person I know discovered, they had stopped all life/disability insurance, salary continuance insurance etc years earlier
4. may run off with someone else and turn nasty from the loving/rationale person you thought they were
5. may use hidden/tied up or family $$ to hire expensive legal assistance that they are happy to drag on forever to make you ‘give up’

These men were all great guys and some I’d say I was genuinely in love with, but never ever worth such a gamble. It’s imperative to be able to leave for whatever reason and be able to support yourself/kids fully, or the same if he decides to call time at any point. We need to get this through to girls/young women early. I certainly have with mine.

Complete aside but the other ‘lesson’ I always hammer home to both girls/young women and boys/young men is if having kids make sure you are exactly where you want to be location wise before you have them. Don’t make the mistake of partnering with someone, having kids in their country or a third country you can’t easily leave with the kids if you don’t factor happily living there forever or you could easily be stuck for the rest of your life from that point. Another important point educate young people on to avoid the ‘but now I’m stuck’ narrative.

As is probably clear from my username, I’m a fan of saying LTB. That’s in real life and on MN. As the child of a bastard-leaver, and having left my own bastard EXH, I am not deluded or inexperienced enough to think this is some kind of easy option.

For me, the OPs sanity and emotional well-being are of paramount importance. Staying with a horrible man will ruin her, and sadly the children are always collateral damage. I would never assume that the OP hasn’t already made every effort to improve things, to improve communication and to ask for better, hence the jump to LTB because she’s usually said all there is to say and it’s run out of road. Also if a man needs lots of ‘hard work’ in order for the relationship to be tolerable for the woman, I’m not sure he’s fit to be anyone’s partner and I don’t see it as the woman’s responsibility to teach a man that nappies need changing and the dishwasher isn’t loaded by elves. IME they just do not improve, and I’d rather see a woman get out while she still has her sanity and her kids haven’t started to base their future relationships on such a shitty template.

Nobody who says LTB is naive enough to think it’s easy, but you’re looking logically at one cost or another, financial or mental. Financial problems are horrible, but are truly easier to scrape yourself out from than being in shreds mentally. I say this from experience. There’s often also a lot of misunderstanding on LTB threads, on what the woman’s rights are, eligibility for things like UC and the likelihood of 50/50 and house splitting etc etc and it’s always worth taking the time to point those things out, as a minimum suggesting things like contacting women’s aid and using the Turn2us calculator to get an idea of a) what is considered abuse and b) if you’d really be worse off or if you’ve misunderstood - or been convinced by said bastard - that you’ll be destitute. It’s really not always the worst case scenario, and I’ve seen women I know be much better off financially once the man goes, by first claiming UC and CMS, and then having the mental freedom to engage with something they’re good at and build a new life and career.

Nobody who says LTB is naive enough to think it’s easy, but you’re looking logically at one cost or another, financial or mental. Financial problems are horrible, but are truly easier to scrape yourself out from than being in shreds mentally

👏 👏 👏

LTB is never easy but often essential. Sometimes it takes a stranger on the internet to get this across to people.

I don’t need my husband. We’re both high earners, earning broadly similar amounts. I’d have a good life if we separated even if he never gave me a penny towards the children.

But…..even on our high incomes, we’d take a big hit. Once you have children, you’re running two households on the same income if you separate. There’s no way we’d have the same standard of living; it would be impossible.

We’d both be fine and finances would never stop me leaving because my income is great alone - but I’d be totally disingenuous to pretend our marriage isn’t financially advantageous to us both. Our lives would change if we split.

So I find the smugness around maintaining independence a little silly. Even with two careers there’s a big financial hit to divorce when you have multiple children.

Have two children, yes I downsized the house but our lifestyle remained the same ( I had more disposable income ) and BONUS every other weekend child free!

Well yeah but you manage. I've been a lone parent for years. You cut your cloth accordingly.

@MissTrip82

Even with two careers there’s a big financial hit to divorce when you have multiple children.

Well yes of course but it depends what the priorities are. If staying the marriage would wreck their mental health and their kids wellbeing, the money is the lesser issue.

No amount of financial featherbedding will offset living in a toxic environment.

People have to decide what’s most important. Of course it’s not easy, but sometime it is the only way to survive.

It’s not about being “smug”. It’s just pointing out that still far too few women put proper insurance in place to guard against their marriage going wrong.

A lot of Mumsnetters won't like this and argue it's not true, but the fact is that most mothers of very young children will put up with a lot of shit from husbands/partners rather than leave.

The reality of the hardships of single parenthood are enough for most mothers to overlook, sometimes considerable faults in their childrens' fathers. At least until the children have reached an age when single parenthood is more manageable.

My daughter's father is a heavy drinker and selfish bastard, but he has a good job and provided well for us.

My daughter is an adult now and her father and I have been divorced for a few years. Despite his considerable faults as a husband, I don't think my life would have been better without him when our daughter was a child.

I think it's reasonable to assume most LTB advice we see on here comes from women who would not take their own advice.

I would absolutely take my own advice but my husband doesn’t provide well for me, I provide well for myself.