To be at my wit's end with DS's table manners.

[LittlePearDrop]

DS is 11, nearly 12.

His table manners are atrocious. He has to be constantly prompted to use a knife and fork, otherwise he just uses his hands.

He drops food everywhere.

He wipes his hands on his clothes.

He chews with his mouth open.

He shovels food into his mouth as though he were starving when he absolutely is not.

If it's something like a sandwich, he can't just take a bite like a normal civilized human being. He has to pull chunks off to shove into his mouth, creating more crumbs.

We eat all meals together when at home. So it's not like he doesn't have role models. I am CONSTANTLY correcting him, every bloody meal time, and yet nothing changes. I've tried praising the good, I've tried threatening no pudding as a consequence and whilst that works in the short term, it's back to the same habits next meal time. I make him clean up his own mess.

His younger sister doesn't have any of these habits. He isn't neuro diverse. He is incredibly lazy and will always opt for the easiest route to complete something, even if it isn't the best option.

Anyone got any tips? I'm fed up of having to prompt him every meal time and of his clothes getting grease stains all over them. It's like he never progressed from the toddler years but in all other aspects he's a lovely and intelligent boy.

You do have to explicitly teach table manners. If the child is allowing food to land on the floor, messily eating to the discomfort of others, then they need to learn that is is wrongful behaviour, this is not what you do.

Teaching table manners is one thing but making them sit on the floor to eat while everyone else is at the table is just degrading! They’re not animals! They’re children!
I have one son whose table manners are great and another who still struggles to eat with his mouth closed sometimes, and also manages to make more mess than the rest of us. I would never make him sit on the floor to eat!! He is reminded and told when he is doing something that is not considered good manners. He tries his best and is improving but he definitely does not need punishment for it! He knows what is expected of him without being made to think he is less worthy than the rest of us!
I'm afraid I strongly disagree with your ideas on this.

No. But the original OP is talking about a DC who will not learn, afaik.

I’m afraid I still wouldn’t follow your advice even if my child wouldn’t/couldn’t learn. I would find ways which helped them, not make them feel they were worthless, no matter how frustrated or disgusted I might be by their behaviour. At the end of the day they are my child and I want to support them as does the OP.

I use ‘thank you’ in place of ‘please’ when something is non negotiable, although this is more in a school environment as behaviour management: it is polite and modelling manners whilst also setting an expectation. I don’t tend to talk to my own children in the same way though now they’re older as I know they’ll do as I ask with no fuss, so please can be used interchangeably (sometimes in a pleading voice 😂)

Fully agree with this. My open-mouthed eater does other things beautifully and is a lovely kid; the last thing he needs is humiliating because he isn’t perfect! I’m trying the positive reinforcement route now of a sticker chart for FIFA points and he’s very motivated by this 😂 It’s also a bit of a joke in our house that he eats with his mouth open; he knows he shouldn’t but also knows none of us are perfect and he does things well his brother doesn’t - swings and roundabouts! The thought of humiliating him into doing something breaks my heart!

As with hypermobility making using cutlery painful and difficult - not being a cunt to him will help.

Anyhow, he's off to secondary soon - they all have to shovel things in by hand, often when standing up, as most schools only provide a handful of tables and not enough time to sit there mincing scraps together for an hour. He'll fit in just fine with everybody else.

my 12 year old DS is exactly like this and does all the things you describe. If you walked in the room after meal time and wasn’t there you would know exactly where he has been sat from the mess on the floor and around the table.

we have always sat at the table to eat dinner, there is no phones or tv allowed and we have always used cutlery so like you he can see how he is supposed to eat, just hoping it’s something he grows out of.

FWIW he was referred a year ago by his primary school for an ADHD assessment.

My son has dyspraxia and while he's nothing like you describe at the table, he does struggle more with spilling things than his brother who's 3 years younger. There's also sensory processing disorder that aligns with messy eating, and often ND conditions are multiple (not always though). There's lots online about SPD and just saw this on 'food pocketing'

• Food pocketing: This includes individuals who excessively stuff their mouths or pocket food in their cheeks. Food pocketing may be due to poor coordination, poor sensory awareness in the mouth, and/or chewing difficulties.

My DS is starting secondary in Sept too, and this I think is where Dyspraxia can really become a problem with learning - organisation, working memory, handwriting of course. It's worth getting him assessed I would say so that they can put things in place asap to support.

I think the posters raising the question of possible dyspraxia make a very fair point; the crucial thing is, he needs to be gently steered for his own benefit, not punished. He needs help and encouragement, possibly extra practical help.
Outside the home, as he grows up, he will be judged, unfortunately. The PP who mentioned overhearing a young chap bemoaning the lack of second dates felt sorry for him, but forbore from interfering; the young ladies concerned just saw unseemly table manners and were put off but probably too polite to say directly why.
I have heard, anecdotally, of potential employers not having the heart to tell a promising candidate why a day's interviewing, which had been going swimmingly, came adrift at lunchtime when the interviewer saw their table manners, but if the job involves entertaining clients.... It may be unfair, but that 's the harsh reality.
No average 11-year old is going to be the slightest bit interested in such scenarios, but his parents want him to thrive in society. They are in a position to tell him kindly and help him present himself well. This may entail helping him see the consequences of his actions, such as soiled clothing, or a mess; no harsh admonishment, but a calm assertion that putting matters right is his responsibility, and causing him more inconvenience than anybody else.
When I was still teaching, I was involved in helping a youngster make the adjustment to conventional dining habits. He was 4th yr, junior (now Y6) and had resisted cutlery use at the toddler stage, so DM had taken the line of least resistance, and he basically got by on finger foods. I think she hoped he would "grow into it" but was beginning to realise that he needed a nudge in the right direction. When he was first moved over to school dinners, he found it quite a struggle, but he eventually go the hang of it.

Has he ever been checked for jaw alignment re the mouth open eating? He's right at the age where some bits grow faster than other bits, so perhaps his upper and lower jaw don't fit together just now. Or perhaps he's never had a good "bite"? Wee trip to dentist maybe?

No, it sounds more and nore like dyspraxia.

Interesting points about dyspraxia. His handwriting is appalling and he is quite clumsy.

OP obviously has been teaching him table manners for yeaes! His sibling has no issues. Why do you assume he won't do it instead of having the wit to see that he has difficulty?

That wasn't clear. I likely have dyspraxia, my table manners are fine. I have trouble ringing bells (church bells), keeping my balance, doing a lot of things which need co-ordination. Handwriting always been poor.

My son mentioned not being able to breathe through his nose, as a reason for eating with his mouth open. When i took him to the GP, they ruled out a few things and suggested it was due to they way they teach swimming under water and needs to learn to use his nose in small increments. Also, years later, he now has developed a need for inhalers.

Poirot did what now??

Possibly the best typo ever😂

I don't think that's a typo!

does he by any chance have an over or under bite?

I'll add another vote for potential dyspraxia. I was diagnosed three years ago, aged 31, and suddenly so many things made sense. It goes way beyond my ludicrous levels of clumsiness and explains why it took me 7 years to learn to drive (finally passing in an automatic, because I physically couldn't get to grips with a manual car). Why I mix up left and right, have zero sense of direction, and can't read a map. Even using sat-nav, I miss turns when driving because I can't tell from the diagram which street I'm supposed to turn down.

I also have hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome so between the two conditions, my grip/dexterity/coordination is a joke. It can take me a full minute to get my key into the front door. I eat with my cutlery in the "wrong" hands and I can't watch TV or interact with anyone during meal times because I can only cut my food (and keep it on my plate) if I'm looking at it. Similarly, if I'm not looking at my fork, I can't find my mouth with it.

You mention that your DS has messy handwriting - how does he hold a pen? The OT who diagnosed me noticed I hold my pen as far down as possible, I guess because it gives me better control. I also grip it like my life depends on it, so my hand and arm become weak and tired after just a few minutes of writing. That was another lightbulb moment for me and I admitted to her that I'd been using travel sized liquid eyeliner and mascara for years because they're much shorter and easier to control than the full-sized versions.