Anyone else wobbling about voting Labour?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

I desperately want to GTTO but the last few years have taught me that ‘any change’ isn’t always good and things can get worse, even if you think they can’t.

I’ve watched all the debates now and Starmer is so… wet. I don’t like him. The first thing he did when women’s rights were mentioned his first thought was men who ‘identify as women’ and how ‘marginalised’ they are. When asked about immigration he squirmed and squirmed before muttering about his role as DPP (who cares? We want to know what you plan to do NOW). When asked about his support for Corbyn he said ‘but I didn’t think we would actually win..’

There’s something about him which is making me very uncomfortable and I just have a bad feeling now about what would happen if he was leader.

Anyone else? If you’re not voting Tory or Labour, who are you voting for and why? I assumed I would vote Labour this time but my gut is suddenly screaming at me not to!

In our electoral system what is the point in voting for a candidate you know will finish a distant 3rd? Waste of your own time and effort.

I'm also extremely adverse to the phrase super majority. What do people actually think this means in practice? Once party gets a majority of c50 they have carte blanche to do as they please. Why would you be concerned if they have a majority of 200 v one of 75? The logistics of the next 5 years would be unchanged.

No matter who you vote for locally, the whip comes out and they vote themselves, nationally

Sir Starmer has the very real issue of being deposed by the left, once in office , which brings in his deputy and Corbyn, in my opinion.

Sir Starmer, and I call him that, as was enthralled enough by the title, to accept it. Has no consideration for women or girls, and will never get my vote.
Its not just him it’s the Labour Party.

We all do want to be inclusive and embrace others, but this is too many steps, too far

Sir Starmer the Alarmer !!

and Too many steps too far

my new slogans

I live in a constituency that "isn't a Labour priority" i.e has always been blue and the Labour candidate isn't looking strong. The boundary changes however means 50% of the constituency has changed. But it seems Labour is still unlikely to do well here. Removed any wobbles I had as I feel I have no choice but to tactically vote Lib Dem and the local Lib Dem candidate actually does a lot for the area, works hard and lives in the constituency. Unlike the Labour and Conservative candidates.

How do your local options compare? It feels like such a big deal doesn't it if you're desperate for change/better but have no clear choice.

Our local is Alan Mac and he is an absolute waste of space. His predecessor was Willets - lived local, got involved in the local politics and helped out so much.
Can’t bring myself to vote Labour as they’re basically offering the same as the Tories and Starmer is a skirmer - he’ll get ridden over by foreign governments and doesn’t have a backbone.
But I can’t vote for Alan Mac. Full stop even though Sunnak and Hint actually have a decent plan for the finances of the country (if you want the government to spend more, taxes will have to be raised).
Possible spoilt paper for me I think as the 3 green local councillors haven’t even shown their faces since ousting the 3 conservative councillors who actually knew their town they represented.

On what basis do you form that opinion?

What have the Conservatives done that was so great for public finances or public services? Do you think that the PPE scandal, track and trace and various other public procurement fiascos overseen by the Conservative are evidence of a higher standard of public finance management?

You make less sense than someone that they don't like Starmer's hair.

Still lower taxes than most of the European countries we want the public services of. Yes any party in power will be Ed to put up taxes. We are spending about £50bn a year to pay for interest on our loans. We need to increase defence spending rapidly, which we have been cutting for decades in order to pay for other things. There is a housing crisis, education crisis and healthcare crisis everywhere.

We are totally skint. Taxes have to rise. Labour keep saying ‘oh we won’t see the state of the national finances properly until after the election’, which is a sure fire set up for - at the first budget - to say ‘oh shit, we’re skint. Who knew? We’ll have to put up taxes to cope with this unforeseen circumstance’.

I shall try.

They don't deserve to win because they are out of touch with the electorate, have communicated poorly and have a very poor leader. They have not recovered since Brexit and remain too factionalised between left and right. The grass roots have much to answer for and need to be reorganised and modernised.

As I have said, I am not voting for the party, I am voting for the best local candidate who happens to be Conservative. If it were a different candidate I may have voted LibDem.

I don't have a crystal ball so can't comment on their policies

What I do think, however, is that Blair in 1997 was handed an economy in good shape. This was delivered by the Conservative government and it allowed Blair's spending spree and supported his popularity wave. He went before the wave broke leaving Gordon Brown with a bit of a mess, so Gordon sold all the gold at rock bottom.

Labour handed over a bit of a mess in 2010 and the financial crisis meant austerity was inevitable. Cameron and Blair occupied the same space - both moderate populist who managed to hold their parties together. Neither were true conviction politicians. Their parties have respectively been picking up the pieces since. Both men and frustration with them allowed the extremes in their party to pull through. Corbyn and Johnson.

Bearing in mind that Starmer will have an economic mess handed to him alongside a huge majority, without Blair's charisma in his back pocket, Labour will not take long to factionalise and will quickly be attacking itself from within. It is likely to lose favour pretty quickly and middle England will squeal as its pay packets slim due to increased taxation and unionised industry payclaims. Things will quickly turn ugly.

In my view I'd like to see a new, moderate centrist party come through, not unlike the SDP. I think the country needs something new but it isn't Labour and it isn't Conservative. It presently doesn't exist.

I want a free market, a safety net for those who can't rather than those who won't, significantly improved education and the erosion of massive one size fits all comprehensives, personal choice and freedom. Personally I think the NHS has to go in its current form and the medical profession needs to modernise and jump into the middle of the 21st Century. Defence is critical and providing young people with the skills to navigate life rather than the EBacc for all which has fuelled inadequacy for the non academic and ramped cognitive dissonance.

I don't have a massive issue with immigration for as long as this country allows those for whom there's ample work to decline to work more than 16hpw to retain their universal credit. I haven't been able to get an English cleaner for about 30 years and in London and the South East the going rate is £17/£18ph.

There's zero wiggle room, as Liz Truss found out. Labour are all about righting wrongs by spending money - but there is no more money. We need to cut government spending and force people off benefits and into work.

Labour just won't do that.

How many Labour PMs have been removed from the post having delivered a working majority?

And most of the rest of your post is pretentious drivel. No one cares about your slogans.

I think it's between SNP and Labour in my constituency. I'd be fine with either of them.

Why do you expect him to say? If he says anything too left wing he’ll ruin their chances, just like Jeremy did. You should vote for the ideology you prefer, but people seem to vote for policies. Labour should mean higher taxes and better public services but he can’t raise taxes because people want the services without paying the taxes. In the same way, he can’t say anything about increasing benefits, giving people their PIP back and improving the lives of people living in poverty because the majority don’t want that either. So he’s forced into being very moderate. It’s stupid to vote for a completely different ideology because of not liking a few individual policies.

I'm voting Labour as we need to get rid of the SNP in Scotland, they've done nothing for us for last 17 years and we also need the Tories out after all the lies, looking after their millionaire friends etc for the last 14 years , they've broken the country . I hate the way politicians can step down and some other one slides in without being voted in..., yes I'm looking at you John Swinney and Rishi Sunak

Well to be fair, Johnson knew the importance of hair when it comes to appealing to certain elements of the electorate.

In hindsight this article is quite chilling:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/16/boris-johnson-interview-bullingdon-cannabis

Our Lib Dem and Conservative candidates are both pretty good. The Labour candidate seems to have just left school, and I strongly believe that MPs should have real world experience and should have proved themselves in a job.

I'm so uncomfortable with LD and Labour policies on women, or should I say "women". But then I'm so angry with the Conservatives!

I was totally unsure until the polls started looking so bad that Conservatives might not even be the opposition. A strong opposition on the opposite side of the political scales is vital, so I'm veering towards voting Conservative simply because I want them to be in opposition.

If the polls get closer I'll need to look into things more deeply.

Don’t trust Labour with womens rights, it’s a red line for me. The conservatives are shit but at least they have recognised that change is needed here. I’m fairly certain that Labour will utterly destroy women's rights.

Once they have been given away it will be really hard to claw them back. I’ll be damned if I give up my DD’s civil rights as a woman for anything.

I still question the use of the phrase "long and proven track record of being incompetent and evil".

Describing mainstream political parties as evil is an abuse of the English language which reduces the meaning and power of the word evil. The Tories might have some policies you disagree with but doesn't justify bandying around words like evil.

Things which are evil are illegal, there are laws to prevent evil things. Murder is evil it's illegal. Burglary is wrong and its illegal but I would not describe burglary as evil. Describing something as evil is to say it isn't just unpleasant or disagreeable it is to say something is so morally wrong that it should be against the law with very significant consequences.

Using words like evil to describe those with views different to your own is intolerant and seeks to stigmatise holding those views, it doesn't support free speech. The use of the word evil to describe a political opponent is to effectively say you believe the views of that opponent are immoral and should be illegal with severe consequences.

I'm not voting Tory or for any party this election but am not keen on the level of intolerance that some have for other views. I think the Tories are useless but don't think they as a party are so morally wrong that they should be illegal.

It really matters to some people when someone tries to take away their hart fought for rights. You want women to allow biological men to take part in their sports, and be in their changing rooms etc and we have to let them otherwise we’d be seen as being nasty to them? Seriously? Fuck off!

It’s like saying to the suffragettes, you don’t really mind if we take away your right to vote so you? or telling gay people that they can no longer be married.

We are basing it on women's rights, such as women's rights to access a single sex space. The right for women to be recorded as a sex group, because this properly records statistics on crimes against us. The right for a female rape victim to have a female rape counsellor without being told to "reframe her trauma" and accept a trans identifying biological man. The rights of domestic violence survivors to access women-only refuges. The rights of young teenage girls not to be forced to undress alongside a male-bodied teen for sports competitions. It's about protecting our young girls who are distressed about their changing bodies and may have psychological trauma by implementing Cass. The right for same-sex attracted women to access female-only dating, without receiving homophobic abuse for refusing to date a "chick with a dick".

I could keep going. The examples of where women's rights are affected is endless.

This isn't about anyone else. It's about us. It's about women. It's about our girls.

I don't mind at all what trans rights are given to adults as long as they don't impinge on women's rights. Everyone should be happy and safe. I completely support any campaign to provide trans identifying individuals with a safe third space.

But if a party allows male bodied people access to a space where women are vulnerable and expect to only see other biological women then yes, they are affecting women's rights. And that's a big problem for many of us. And there are many reasons why this might be the case.

Not everyone will have the same priorities - we are all shaped by our own needs and experiences, and that will inform our voting preference. The identity and protection of women and girls is something that's very much a focus for me, for personal reasons.

Does anyone care about your opinion either ?
not really 😀

I wouldn’t vote Labour if my life depended on it.

Labour handed over a bit of a mess in 2010 and the financial crisis meant austerity was inevitable

Austerity was not inevitable. It was was an ideological choice which other European countries chose not to follow after the global financial crash.

This whole thread has me despairing how thick much of the electorate is.

Labour would...
Labour might...

And every fucking time it's something that the Conservatives have already done in the last 14 years. Put up taxes. Mismanaged public finances. Changed leader without an election.

How someone can complain that Labour might depose Starmer, when the Conservatives put Liz fucking Truss into No 10 without an election.

@Isitovernow123 I know someone else who speaks as highly as you of Alan Mac.!

Women’s rights, not trans rights.

If you want a strong opposition, Lib Dems are the best bet. The Tories will be too busy infighting to bother about being a decent opposition.