Anyone else wobbling about voting Labour?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

I desperately want to GTTO but the last few years have taught me that ‘any change’ isn’t always good and things can get worse, even if you think they can’t.

I’ve watched all the debates now and Starmer is so… wet. I don’t like him. The first thing he did when women’s rights were mentioned his first thought was men who ‘identify as women’ and how ‘marginalised’ they are. When asked about immigration he squirmed and squirmed before muttering about his role as DPP (who cares? We want to know what you plan to do NOW). When asked about his support for Corbyn he said ‘but I didn’t think we would actually win..’

There’s something about him which is making me very uncomfortable and I just have a bad feeling now about what would happen if he was leader.

Anyone else? If you’re not voting Tory or Labour, who are you voting for and why? I assumed I would vote Labour this time but my gut is suddenly screaming at me not to!

In my area it's between the Tories and LibDems.

Absolutely pointless voting for Labour as they're miles behind.

I know some PP on this thread think it's pathetic, but the identity of women is important to me. If we can't define what a woman is correctly, how do we keep women safe and protect those who are especially vulnerable - eg/rape victims, DV survivors etc. And how do we maintain accurate stats is anyone can be recorded as a woman despite their biology? Accurate stats help to inform public policy that keeps us safe by demonstrating the continued need for single sex spaces etc. It's not about trans rights, it's about women's rights and unfortunately Starmer seems unable to give a direct and consistent answer on how women will be defined and protected. Specifically whether single sex spaces will be maintained - Labour MPs talk a lot about "safe spaces" which are not the same as single sex spaces.

I believe that once we make it easier for anyone to identify as a woman it will be virtually impossible to pull it back in the future. It's like Pandora's box. And we'll have lost the ability to draw on accurate stats to prove a need because male bodies with a penis will be recorded as women - hence the recent increase in "women" committing sexual assault. This is such a pivotal time for women's rights.

I think Starmer has integrity and an impressive intellect. His track record is solid and shows him to be a decent man who genuinely wants to help.

I think he's trying too hard to please everyone and it's not working well. I think he knows darn well what a woman is but doesn't want to alienate any group.

Regardless of the above, I think Labour will win easily.

So my vote won't really affect the outcome of the election. But voting is something that's really important to me so I still want to do the right thing.

I will still vote but what do I do?

I really wanted to vote for Labour but Starmer still seems to be centring trans people when he's being asked about women. Rosie Duffield has not been protected or shown any respect.

Ed Davey seems a very decent man and I think that matters because it influences the policies the party pursues. I haven't looked at the LibDem manifesto because it's pointless. I know their views on women and they are even more extreme, centring centre trans women even more firmly when asked about women's rights.

The Tories realised in the latter days of Boris that they could win brownie points by speaking up for women. Kemi has done a good job of speaking out on the importance of biology, and why women's rights are important. But her other views don't align with mine. The Tories views on disabled people are disgusting. They're corrupt and unpleasant. They've wrecked the NHS and schools.

Reform - yeah, I'm not voting for them. No matter what. They understand biology but I can't even find sufficient words to describe how awful their policies are. And yes, I read their manifesto, just to be completely fair and ensure that I wasn't jumping to conclusions.

Here we also have Greens and the Christian Alliance Party. The former don't know what a woman is a la the Lib Dems, and the latter are homophobic and right wing. That's two more crossed off.

So what the actual hell do I do in the ballot box? I want my voice to be heard. If I vote Lib Dem that's potentially another seat for them, and that means strengthening the voice against women's identity. Don't want to vote for Tory for the very many reasons that have been discussed. Pointless voting for Labour here anyway plus same issue re signalling support for their shitty policies on women's rights.

I guess I spoil my vote as a protest?

The Conservatives are too greedy and too incompetent now and too addled by Brexit to do anything constructive. let the man who has actually got a record of changing and running the public sector be PM.

I am a leftie. But in years past I did very well out of the Conservatives because I paid not that much tax, and public services were okay. Now I pay a lot more tax, s lot more on my bills, a lot more on my mortgage, and my local area is declining. So they can’t even do the bit where they give me low tax and then trash the country. I’ve got higher tsx, trashed country and dire public services. No thanks

I think labour deserve a chance. If anyone thinks the last 14 years hve been great then I despair.

Well it looks like I’m far from alone given the votes..

Well, you can vote for a party who have proven beyond all doubt that they increase taxes to the highest level ever, or you can vote for the party who have said they will not increase income tax.

Many people would be willing to pay more (and fairer) tax if they could see it poured into public services that will benefit the majority rather than watch it be squandered on failed projects like the useless Rwanda scheme.

How about a bit of context, HMRC mostly resposible for this, you make it sound like the conservative party themselves was corrupt. Furlough scheme, eat out scheme and the terrible situation with the bounce bank loans, these were very unusual times. https://bylinetimes.com/2023/06/06/government-fraud-quadruples-on-rishi-sunaks-watch-new-report-reveals/

I say, look at your local candidates if the thought of making Kier Starmer Prime Minister isn't a palatable one. I look at some of the excellent work that grass roots MPs in the Labour party do, such as Zarah Sultana, Richard Burgon and the like - they're committed to a better, fairer world and I applaud that and that's how I'm justifying my vote for Labour, even though I'm doing a postal vote and the last area where I lived in the UK was and always will be Labour. Green would be alternative but I think there'll be a Labour government in the UK come July 5th (and a far-right one where I live now, in France - aargh!)

So strange how the votes don't tally with the discussion don't you think.

I am amazed folk base their vote on this marginal issue of transgender rights.

You're under no obligation to vote for anyone OP. So, if none of them fits what you are looking for, just don't vote - or spoil your ballot paper, which is most likely what I'll end up doing.

Not a chance I'd vote Labour given their current standpoint on what a woman is - if they can lie so blatantly about a fundamental truth, what else are they capable of lying about. And before all the Labour bots swarm in, I've never voted Tory, thank you.

Vote Labour! We need a country that works again!

Women's rights and child safeguarding affect more than 50% of the population. That's what people are basing their vote on.

It’s not really about that for me, it’s about what they’re willing to say in order to gain power/popularity. It makes me suspicious of what else they might do. I don’t think starmer believes what he says for a single moment.

Agree - lying on something as basic as biological sex is like pretending you think the earth is flat in order to get into power. It suggests you're utterly corupt and will deny even the most basic and obvious reality if it suits you.

Trafficking will cost. I mean cleaning up international gangs to the point where they stop trading is not going to be cheap - or at all possible. Plus extra people crossing

But if you are saying yes to higher taxes then that will be the new highest level yet

I honestly don’t understand how anyone could vote Labour. I just know the volume of illegal migrants will soar under Labour and will take up valuable housing and school places that are already in short supply in the Uk.

Some people argue that we need them to fill jobs but a lot of them don’t even end up filling the jobs we need them to. Just yesterday one of the headlines reported the following ‘Angela Rayner: Every part of Britain will take fair share of migrants’ How is it fair that these people jump the queue ahead of British people who have already been on the social housing list for ages?

Then you read headlines about a young girl being raped and choked to death on a boat and young women being harassed in the street. They already don’t have the capacity to carry out proper checks on the people coming to live here. I worry that in a few years time it won’t be a safe country for my daughter to live in. What then?
And that’s just one of the reasons I wouldn’t vote for them.

I don’t trust them, Starmer never seems to give a straight answer when questioned about taxes. My parents told me earlier this afternoon that the last time they got in they promised that there would be no tax rises and then they went back on it and there were loads.

Agree. Or simply ‘go with the flow’ with little critical thought. There’s zero difference between this and him looking you in the eye and saying ‘The world is spherical but occasionally can be flat’

I seriously considered voting Labour for the first time in my life - but they can't bring themselves to say what a woman is, so i can't vote for them. I think Sunak would be a safe pair of hands but he's a good man who's got the job at the wrong time. Lib Dems? No. I wish that there was a 'Non above' option on our voting slips.
I think that only having 2 viable political parties is terrible. Every country needs 3 viable parties so that we aren't always having to swing between 2. I'll vote for a party which isn't Labour, Conservative or Liberal.

This often happens I assume pro Labour more likely to post on these threads and not pro more likely to receive criticism, or as earlier pp called op a ‘bot’

The Tories are shit, but I fear Labour will completely wreck the public finances. They're just not capable, as a party, of making the difficult decisions that are necessary to prevent a debt crisis.

Starmer is being lawyerly re “what a woman is”, and acknowledging that people in the UK have the right to be legally recognized as the gender of their choosing (provided that they have a Gender Recognition Certificate). This isn’t a right that’s easily taken away because it comes from the ECHR.

I don’t think it’s going to be legally possible to exclude transwomen from each and every women’s space and I think that’s part of what makes it hard for Starmer to give as clear an answer as many would like.

You're really voting for your local Labour MP (unless your local Labour MP is Starmer). So vote for who you think will best represent your area locally.

I wish I shared your optimism, but I am old enough to have experienced Labour governments, and with the honourable exception of Blair's first administration which I shall never forgive for eliminating the pension dividend credit, which made final salary pensions unaffordable, and liquidating the UK's gold reserves at bottom feeder prices I can't quite escape the suspicion that most politicians end up being in the game for themselves.

I think this would hold more water if the Conservatives had a better record than Labour on the economy. While that’s the common wisdom it doesn’t seem to actually be true.

The Corbyn thing does seem like a weird point. Surely sll party members get behind the leader. Then once Corbyn lost, Starmer changed course because the previous strategy had failed. I don't see what the gotcha is there.