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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent

486 replies

SlipperSliders · 22/06/2024 19:53

...and I sort of think it's a form of neurodivergence in itself.

By the way I'm trans affirmative.

I don't think I've met a trans person who I thought was neurotypical.

OP posts:
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Rippledipple · 22/06/2024 21:08

Yes the increase is largely related to girls wanting to become boys, all that I know are autistic. I'm neurodivergent myself - not of the generations for any of this stuff but of the generation when cosmetic surgery was booming. I had body dysmorphia and was desperate to get 'work done' Two sides of the same coin IMO.

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2024 21:08

Sparklybutold · 22/06/2024 20:21

Those who identify as trans are more likely to be ND, female, teenager, history of trauma, to name a few. This isn't a surprise to anyone who's been following this.

No, not a surprise at all.

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2024 21:08

TeenLifeMum · 22/06/2024 21:06

From pink news:
Current society largely accepts ‘queer’ as a general and umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community, usually in a positive light.
The Cambridge and Merriam-Websterdictionaries even recognise it as so in their definitions of the word, whilst still acknowledging people can find it offensive.

What 40 year olds need to understand is that the slur used against teens in school when being bullied is not “queer”, it’s “gay”. This is the reason many younger people feel happier with queer than gay.

I doubt any of my gay friends would feel Pink News to be representative of their views either

IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 22/06/2024 21:08

SlipperSliders · 22/06/2024 20:14

@glittercunt

But it's important that people don't equate someone being ND as meaning their sexuality or gender identity is therefore somehow invalid.

Yes I whole heartedly agree.

I just wonder if some transphobic people may hate less if they realised that they are being hateful to a group of marginalised ND people.

Edited

People who genuinely hate trans people will probably not care that they are being hateful to a group of marginalised ND people.

Sex realists, who I suspect you mean when you say 'transphobic people' (please do correct me if I'm wrong), would say that whether a trans person is ND or not is irrelevant- they deserve respect as all humans do, but they still can't change sex, and, if they are male, they should still stay out of female-only spaces and sports.

FrippEnos · 22/06/2024 21:08

TeenLifeMum · 22/06/2024 21:06

From pink news:
Current society largely accepts ‘queer’ as a general and umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community, usually in a positive light.
The Cambridge and Merriam-Websterdictionaries even recognise it as so in their definitions of the word, whilst still acknowledging people can find it offensive.

What 40 year olds need to understand is that the slur used against teens in school when being bullied is not “queer”, it’s “gay”. This is the reason many younger people feel happier with queer than gay.

Ah yes the unbiased news source that is pink news.

arethereanyleftatall · 22/06/2024 21:08

Op - you seem so blinded in your rage against 'transphobes', that you've missed 'transphobes' point.
Yes, it's very common knowledge that many autistic girls think they are trans because they are struggling to fit in.
'Transphobes' are fighting FOR these girls, to not do anything whilst they are growing up, that they will regret down the line.

TeenLifeMum · 22/06/2024 21:09

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2024 21:08

I doubt any of my gay friends would feel Pink News to be representative of their views either

Cambridge dictionary is quite helpful though.

Mummyoflittledragon · 22/06/2024 21:11

MadameMassiveSalad · 22/06/2024 20:34

These guys are not the reason people are getting concerned!

Young adults can be very vocal. Gender critical university lecturers Jo Phoenix (OU) and Kathleen Stock (University of Sussex) were both hounded out of their posts.

IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 22/06/2024 21:11

TeenLifeMum · 22/06/2024 21:06

From pink news:
Current society largely accepts ‘queer’ as a general and umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community, usually in a positive light.
The Cambridge and Merriam-Websterdictionaries even recognise it as so in their definitions of the word, whilst still acknowledging people can find it offensive.

What 40 year olds need to understand is that the slur used against teens in school when being bullied is not “queer”, it’s “gay”. This is the reason many younger people feel happier with queer than gay.

Pink News is a vile excuse for a news outlet, and is frequently lesbophobic and misogynistic. You are not the expert in gay attitudes you seem to think you are.

Diverze · 22/06/2024 21:12

Pantaloons99 · 22/06/2024 21:00

@Diverze that's really interesting. What do you think led to that shift around 2015 onwards?

Social media. Queer theory. Stonewall, mermaids, Allsorts teaching pack. Rainbow family stuff. Social contagion.

jenecomprendspas24 · 22/06/2024 21:12

Yep 100% of the young people I know who identify as trans are ND. It may or may not 🙄 be a coincidence that the dramatic rise of ND trans people has correlated with the tories disastrous cuts to education and support services. Lost kids, unsupported and having a miserable time, desperate to fit in. As a slight aside, I worked with a group of 20 young people aged 11-17 last year who were self harming, and without fail they were all ND too (and about 25% of them identified as trans).

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 22/06/2024 21:12

Trans and ND seem to have massive overlaps. I’ve always thought they were v v similar as ‘conditions’ and share many common features

Tumbleweed101 · 22/06/2024 21:13

I think I'd read somewhere many years ago that gay, transexual etc had either a different genetic influence or a different hormone influence while in the womb. The fetus influences much of this kind of thing so genetics makes sense for the hormones.

I don't know if this is scientifically proven or not now as was a long time ago I heard or read it.

mybeesarealive · 22/06/2024 21:15

I'm a gender critical autistic person. Sex is immutable and determined by the presence or absence of Y chromosomes. Gender dysphoria is a psychological matter. There isn't enough meaningful research into its causes for anyone to have a true understanding of it yet. So into the vacuum flows ideology. There may be a correlation between some forms of ND and gender dysphoria, but why that is just speculation absent serious study. I spent a long time in my youth feeling isolated and like an outsider and atypical before I knew of and understood my autism. I can see how with certain nudge factors, some people might conclude they are in the wrong body especially if they are depressed, and experiencing feelings of internalised shame regarding same sex attraction.

allowstatistical · 22/06/2024 21:16

What's wrong with saying ASD?! I thought ASD and autism were the same thing?! I'm so confused these days.

@Hinkuy ASD is autistic spectrum disorder. Autistic individuals are not disordered, they are the way they were always meant to be, just like being left handed or heterosexual or male etc.

Todaywasbetter · 22/06/2024 21:16

SlipperSliders · 22/06/2024 20:20

OK. What's your point?

I think that any difference in people is picked up on at a young age and that is an easy targeted for bullies and abusers.

I hope you're not ignorant enough to think that being abused causes being trans.

Almost as ignorant as your suggestion that children are abused because they are trans.

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2024 21:16

We grew up sniggering in horror at school at the word “queer” when used in poetry or a piece of writing from the past because it was a totally verboten, offensive slur for a homosexual person, so I can’t get my head around how it’s been reclaimed. I don’t understand what it means any more though.

Pantaloons99 · 22/06/2024 21:16

Tumbleweed101 · 22/06/2024 21:13

I think I'd read somewhere many years ago that gay, transexual etc had either a different genetic influence or a different hormone influence while in the womb. The fetus influences much of this kind of thing so genetics makes sense for the hormones.

I don't know if this is scientifically proven or not now as was a long time ago I heard or read it.

I just read about this online; the testosterone or male brain theory. The argument is potentially this is an explanation for the females who are both Autistic and wishing to transition to male.
I do believe there is the possibility of a biology component here beyond just ' being Autistic ' and identify/ trauma that comes with that.

I am not ND - my son is. His father has a very strong family history and I suspect also ND. I wonder if that could still support the excess testosterone argument

Todaywasbetter · 22/06/2024 21:18

Pantaloons99 · 22/06/2024 21:16

I just read about this online; the testosterone or male brain theory. The argument is potentially this is an explanation for the females who are both Autistic and wishing to transition to male.
I do believe there is the possibility of a biology component here beyond just ' being Autistic ' and identify/ trauma that comes with that.

I am not ND - my son is. His father has a very strong family history and I suspect also ND. I wonder if that could still support the excess testosterone argument

Edited

Your beliefs are interesting but they are not connected to facts are they?

RedToothBrush · 22/06/2024 21:18

FatFilledTrottyPuss · 22/06/2024 20:30

Both of my children are neurodivergent, struggled to fit in at school and are now having gender identity issues. Both children in one family born into the wrong body, what are the chances?!
they both only started having these issues during lockdown and puberty, like so many of their friends. Dd has gone from princess, makeup, dressing up loving feminine girl to anime, makeup, dressing up loving girl who thinks she’s always felt like a boy despite all the evidence to the contrary. Ds still loves Star Wars and fighting and zombie games but wearing a short pleated skirt, cat ears and over the knee socks instead of jeans. It’s almost like there’s something else at play here and vulnerable nd children are more susceptible to it.

This is deeply offensive.

You can't be born in the wrong body. And having been a child in a family where my mother did this, and totally fucked up both of us by projecting her sexism onto us and gaslighting us into believing there was something wrong with us, I strongly suggest you think about what you are saying.

Are disabled people 'born in the wrong body?'

What is gender? Describe it without using sexist stereotypes. I am serious. This is sexism.

Why is it that certain hobbies and interests pop up all the time? Why anime? Whats the deal with that? OVER AND OVER AND OVER Again. Strangley Japanese culture is one of the most heavily gender stereotyped cultures in the world.

Then there's Cass. The Cass Review literally says that yes there is a link between abuse and trans identifying. And being autistic.

So are trans people autistic? Or are autistic kids picking up on cultural ideas, getting carried away with them - egged on by social networks online which encourage this - precisely because they are more vulnerable because they are lacking in real world social networks and normal social interactions.

Heres the difficult bit. All the people saying they are 'trans affirmative' - so where does that leave you in terms of detransitioners. The range of detransition seems to range from upwards of 50 - 90% in young adults. It takes a number of years to detransition but it is happening on a much wider scale than many are willing to admit.

WHY? This is the million dollar question we must address.

We can't say that being trans is a form of neurodiversity if we have that going on. You can't suddenly cease to be neurodivergent. The trans stuff is a by product of SOMETHING which is more likely to manifest in someone neurodiverse.

I would argue its possibly a symptom of neurodiversity and neurodiverse teens and young people are looking for something and trans seems to be a magic solution (until its suddenly not) because of the social networking aspect to it (my experience of online community bubbles is that they tend to have a life span of about 5 - 8 years before they burst and people go their separate ways in real life (I've been in social media communities since 1998).

If so many are transitioning, why are we medicalising so early?

There are HUGE issues that Cass asks about in terms of vulnerabilities, comorbidities and other needs - such as a history of trauma and abuse that are going unaddressed PRECISELY because all the focus is put onto transition and not onto looking into other parallel and agacent issues.

My biggest beef here, is that there is no ability of people who prattle on about trans-affirmative and label everything they disagree with as transphobic. There is no willingness to even consider the possibility that people raising concerns have massive questions about it all BECAUSE THEY CARE, not because they hate anyone at all. Its always framed as this.

And I say all this, because age 19 I was talking like all of this. I was saying I should have been a boy. I hated being a woman. Etc etc. Its text book. And I am sooo sooo grateful I wasn't born years later. It took me a LONG time to finally come to terms with being a woman. I think I ended up coping for years, but I only really was at peace with it in my later 30s.

This is such a complex and difficult subject. Reducing it to trans affirmative versus transphobic as a binary either or, is frankly ignorant and harmful and deeply offensive.

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2024 21:18

jenecomprendspas24 · 22/06/2024 21:12

Yep 100% of the young people I know who identify as trans are ND. It may or may not 🙄 be a coincidence that the dramatic rise of ND trans people has correlated with the tories disastrous cuts to education and support services. Lost kids, unsupported and having a miserable time, desperate to fit in. As a slight aside, I worked with a group of 20 young people aged 11-17 last year who were self harming, and without fail they were all ND too (and about 25% of them identified as trans).

Not to mention the pandemic and lockdowns, which meant many teenagers spending more time than usual online.

DreamTheMoors · 22/06/2024 21:18

I have a group of trans friends.
One’s a registered nurse.
One’s a social worker.
One’s a law student.
One’s in a managerial position at a bank.
None of them are neurodivergent or neurodiverse or autistic or have Asperger’s or whatever you choose to call it. They’re responsible adults with responsible jobs living their lives.
They’re a part of a larger group of trans people (the trans alliance in my nearby city) I met in 2013 — and I never hear them discussing non-trans people and their mental issues.
They talk about their lives and their jobs and the cost of groceries and stuff like people talk about on Mumsnet every day.

LittleLittleRex · 22/06/2024 21:20

I have a non trans ASD DD, and I can see how it happens, just from seeing how she focuses and fixates on things.

I can quite comfortably recognise that my skill set and personality might align with male stereotypes, I just don't care and can dismiss the stereotypes as stupid. I can see that if my DD drew the same conclusion she would want to fix it or do something about it. Then add in the confidence of all the people telling her exactly how to fix it and make it all "right." Perfect storm.

I don't think the middle aged men fit though, lots of different paths lead to trans these days, it's a mistake to group them together.

Pantaloons99 · 22/06/2024 21:20

Todaywasbetter · 22/06/2024 21:18

Your beliefs are interesting but they are not connected to facts are they?

Yes you're absolutely right. I have never once claimed anything I've said to be fact. We simply don't have enough facts on the subject at all. None of us do. It's all theory, conjecture and debate.

Why are you upset by my post. I'm incredibly open to every possibility out there. This is a fascinating subject. I enjoy discuss all theories

CassandraWebb · 22/06/2024 21:20

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2024 21:16

We grew up sniggering in horror at school at the word “queer” when used in poetry or a piece of writing from the past because it was a totally verboten, offensive slur for a homosexual person, so I can’t get my head around how it’s been reclaimed. I don’t understand what it means any more though.

Perhaps it's a generational or geographical thing. I don't remember the word queer being used at all as a teen, negatively or otherwise.

"Gay" on the other hand some people would most certainly use derogatively or would snigger if they heard it. I am glad I don't hear it used in that way any more .

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