to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

[snickersnack]

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

"Particularly when some of the people being high-handed and obtuse about the reasons for some parents not taking up vaccines are quite happily smearing lethal dog shit all over the pavements my children walk to school on."

Greensleeves: I really don't think that people who have taken the time to weigh up the consequences and thought long and hard about MMR and then decided to go ahead for the benefit of their own dc and the dcs of their neighbours/peers, are the same type of people who don't clear up after their dogs. I really don't.

singyswife - I echo Berolina, if you're clearing up after your dog then you're a responsible dog owner and they're not discussing you.

I am no expert on herd immunity but the way I understand it, if a percentage of the population are immunised against a particular disease this should, once the initial immunisation program is conducted, ensure that there is less chance a non-immunised person will come into contact with someone with the disease, thus reducing transmission rates (I believe). This probably explains it far better:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

The maths doesn't really add up in herd immunity ..I always think of it as more a kind of sales talk than anything else..

Don't forget, you are asking other children to take great risks. Their parents are not just silly sausages acting on a whim.

My point was not that it is okay for dogs to shit because I have them, my point was just that not everyone lets their dogs shit all over the place. I was at a soft play the other day and a child shit in there, there were hundreds of children all playing in the same area, that is a good way to spread bugs too, so technically you shouldnt let an un toilet trained child out to play incase they shit. I am leaving this thread now, am totally offended.

I think people compartmentalise their thinking. I think it's entirely probable that some of the people being high-handed and obtuse about some parents refusing some vaccines ARE dog owners who leave smears of shit in the street for children to catch disease from.

"people who have taken the time to weigh up the consequences and thought long and hard about MMR"

people who HAVEN'T taken it up also think long and hard and make the decision for reasons they think are best. You're very intolerant if you assume otherwise IMO. Or do you think we just thought "oh sod it, he doesn't like needles anyway and I can't be arsed walking to the surgery"

Especially as for very young children you have zero percent vaccinated

Actually, on the 'shit bit' of this thread - cat shit is what makes me reaaaaally cross; I can prevent (mostly) my dd from getting dog poo on her, but then some charming moggy comes and craps right in the middle of the lawn where she plays...and what can you do???Other than pick it up yet again [blood boiling emoticon]
(Sorry just thought I'd have a quick rant)

Of course not, and I know pelnty of people who have not immunised their children and that decision is theirs to make and I don't think badly of parents who do not immunise. There are lots of reasons parents don't and I am not the sort of person to question why or judge them on that.

Why? I'm confused. I have a dog and didn't feel that I was being targeted with previous comments. I clear up after my dog.

X- post. I was, of course, speaking directly to singyswife.

Redadmiral.

First jab (2 months) she went into an unusally deep sleep and slept for six hours, I was unable to rouse her but managed to get her to feed a little in her sleep. She cried a great deal (unconsolable) in the days following.

Second jab (4 months)her thigh was swollen to nearly twice its size, very hot and hard to touch. Took weeks to go away and she was left with a nodule for months (apparantly this is a reaction to the aluminium based adjuvant). She then went on to develop gut problmes and severe multiple food allergies and excema. We have been nursing her back to health for the last 4 years. She is in good health now but we have to watch what she eats and do a load of other stuff. Doctor agrees that it was an adverse event to vaccine.

I would be VERY careful if your little one has already had an adverse event, it appears that they do tend to get worse with each jab. I would recommend that you read up on this yourself (there are loads of good books available) and make a careful decision for your child based on research not rumour or NHS pressure. My reading has led me to come to the conclusion that the government and the press play down the risks enormously whilst hugely exagerating the benefits of vaccination at individual level.

purplejennyrose - try one of the sonic cat deterants, borrow one if you can, or a water pistol. They're harmless and deter...

My issue with pet shit is not just toxoplasmosis but also toxocara. Most animals will contract toxoplasmosis as young and like adults (as far as I am aware) become immune to it, like humans do. As such the chance of them passing on toxoplasmosis is relatively low. Animals can get toxocara (which are larvae) and humans can get toxocariasis which inflicts the same sort of problems (blindness, organ damage etc) and it is simple to prevent this by regulalry worming your pets. Lots of people only worm when the pet has worms.

I also think herd immunity concept is sales talk. The maths definitely doesn't add up. Also why is scarlet fever no longer a public health issue? There is no vaccine and therefore no herd immunity for it.

Expat, I understand the theory behind Gardasil, I just take issue with it being touted as a 'cervical cancer vaccine' when nobody actually knows yet if it prevents cancer. It has a zero efficacy rate so far, why lobby to have it made mandatory?

But thats is the thing, I can see how herd immunity would work. To me that makes sense. Others see it as a sales pitch and that has not reassurred them or convinced them to immunise. It is a question of perception, and neither is wrong.

No, I just think people who MMR their children are very unlikely to have, at the same time, a cavalier attitude to their dog's shit. If you do MMR your children, you aren't likely to have done so without weighing up the pros and cons. If you don't, you have weighed up and the pros and cons and decided its not for your dcs.

The people who leave their dog's shit on the pavement don't generally give a fuck about anyone else. They may be older, they may be childless, they may be clueless. They are unlilkely to be people with young children, whatever.

I was sort of seeing the MMR and dog poo debates as seperate....

Or you could argue that people MMR their children because the HV brightly and breezily tells them to. The culture of the Little Red Book removes the necessity for some parents to make decisions at all.

Parents who refuse the MMR almost invariably do so in the face of considerable shock and disgust from friends/family/HCPs and have thought it though and made the decision for reasons they judge to be valid.

It's illogical (and a bit naive IMO) to say that everybody who allows their child to have the MMR is public-spirited and principled to clean up after their animal when they think nobody's looking.

Westcountrylass I have tried to read research on herd immunity, it is a theory, not a proven concept.

There are recorded instances of disease outbreaks in 100% vaccinated populations. I understand the idea and it sounds nice but there doesn't seem to be any actual research or proof to back it up. I don't like it being used as an argument to put pressure on people to vaccinate as though it is a proven factor in disease incidence.

WRT to dogshit side issue, I know people who have small children, all vaccinated and let their dog run all around the village I live in, crapping wherever it pleases.

I don't think people fit into boxes like that.

People will or won't vaccines because of loads of different reasons, whether they clean up their dog crap I have no idea!

So Greensleeves - everyone who allows their child to have the MMR hasn't thought it through, isn't aware of the risks and history of the vaccine - but everyone who refuses it is well informed and thoughtful?

I disagree with you - and am jolly offended actually.

I haven't put any pressure on anyone to vaccinate. Like most things in life I am pro-choice.

No, I didn't say that everybody who has the MMR hasn't thought it through. I took issue with terriblyashamed's insinuation that people who took the MMR were more likely to be principled and public-spirited enough to clear up shit than thoose who refused it. I was demonstrating that you could argue it the other way too.

I agree with WCL that people don't fit into boxes like that. I said earlier that I think people tend to compartmentalise their thinking though - someone might have an attitude towards vaccination that seem to be very at odds with their behaviour in other areas of life - people don't always perceive the same connections.