to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

[snickersnack]

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

YANBU I felt the same when DD1 got it at a month old

No there isnt hatrick, but nothing to prove it either. Parents make an informed choice, but its hard to see that when your baby is sick with something that is preventable.

well your a better person than me

"I've worked with HVs in the past, and like myself they also agree that there's no link with MMR and autism."

pmsl at the idea that health visitors are a reliable authority on medical matters.

iorekByrnison-thats really sad that you feel that way. Yes some hv's are awful and shouldn't be allowd to practice but many provide invaluable support and medical advice to parents-they are trained nurses and are they do have to read an awful lot of current research so as to ably advise parents-don't judge the whole profession cos of a few bad eggs.

As for the MMR-i think what scottishmum007 was trying to say is that the link between the triple jab and ASD has been shown to have no basis in scientific evidence. I think that it is every parents choice, however with current guidelines and evidence parents don't need to feel the same fear as a few years ago (whether that be via the triple or single jabs)

To the OP, so sorry about you lo and hope he makes a full recovery soon.

"the link between the triple jab and ASD has been shown to have no basis in scientific evidence."

Does no-one read the thread? I know it's long, but yet agina this just isn't true.

Not all HV's agree that it's 'bullshit' (quite when HV's became experts in reading science papers I don't know). Or at least I assume they don't because when I informed my HV that ds2 and ds3 would be receiving no jabs at all she said 'don't blame you I would do the same in your situation.'.

Deeply depressing that a HV would refuse to read thread but still feel justified in calling all the evidence 'bullshit'.

helibee - I don't doubt that there are some good, well-nformed hv's about, but my experience has been very mixed (antibiotics prevent thrush was one choice example of the advice I was given). My point was only that referring to the opinions of a group of hv's is not in itself a credible argument.

Posieparker, you mention that you have read stuff by Brian Deer and Michael Fitzpatrick. Neither of these two can be considered reliable sources due to their links with the pharmaceutical industry.

Fitzpatrick is on the board of trustees of the Sense About Science lobby group which names the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI), GlaxoSmithKline, the biopharmaceutical companies AstraZeneca plc, Pfizer plc and Oxford GlycoSciences plc among its many funding sources. Spikedonline which Fitzpatrick is also part of is a similar organisation. Both of these lobbies have a political and economic agenda.

Brian Deer's role in the smear campaign against Dr Wakefield is mentioned in the following link;

Deer is not the only one to be up to no good

"The Sunday Times' freelancer (Deer) was assisted in his efforts with free advice and assistance from the Association of British Pharmaceutical Industry funded and controlled company Medico Legal Investigations Limited

Medico Legal Investigations Limited speciality was in getting medical doctors on charges before the General Medical Council

so we know that before a single word was published by The Sunday Times, it was already being planned with the involvement of interested parties that Wakefield and colleagues were to be taken before the GMC

Another free of charge helper to Sunday Times journalist Deer was Glaxo Wellcome funded Fellow and active British Medical Association member, Dr Evan Harris MP.

Harris has advised and assisted Deer up to the present day, including attending the Wakefield GMC hearings with Deer.

The Sunday Times journalist, Deer, was also assisted by The Royal Free's Strategic Health Authority which passed Deer confidential documents 'in the spirit of openness' and including documents relating to the confidential medical treatment of the MMR child litigants

the SHA at first denied providing documents until it was pointed out the fact was disclosed by Dr Evan Harris MP, in Parliament on 15th March 2004"

IIRC journalists, unlike scientits, are not required to declare any conflicts of interest.

Oh and can people please stop saying that Dr Wakefield's research is 'crap' or has been discredited. Frankly it just sounds like they haven't actually even read any of it.

Wakefield's science stands scientifically unchallenged, hence the need to ruin his reputation.

I've said before on this thread that I have spent 4 years reading as much as I can about this issue. If someone knows of impartial, unflawed science that challenges Wakefield's hypothesis would they be so kind as to provide a link 'cos I'd really like to see it.

See here for a snippet from the Cochrane Database that supports Wakefield's work on casein/gluten free diets and suggests that a large scale study needs to be done. I believe such a study has been planned for 2008.

beachcomber

new to this thread. followed it all the way through in horror and fascination. can you recommend any reading material/links to me? Am leaning towards non vax. need more material. read all the government stuff. not buying into it, don't live in UK, so having access to material is harder than ever. DS comes from heavily allergy affected/extreme sensitivity line and i have a huge instinct to refuse all vax.
many thx.

agree with hatrick. Richard Halvorsen is the place to start. There are other books, but his is UK-centric, the most up to date and well referenced. And he talks directly to you and at the end tells you his recommendations (for a 'standard' no risks child). I plan to see him privately some time to ask what he would recommend for ds2 and ds3.

Thanks for that link beachcomber. DS1 has benefitted from gluten free in particular. DS3 (not autistic, but lucky escape I think) is dreadful on cows milk (OK on goats- different form of casein and digested more easily)

Hi lilimama, welcome to the thread!

I agree with hatrick and yurt that Halvorsen's book is good. You can buy it on amazon, they will post outside the UK. I got it sent to me in France.

You're welcome yurt.

I see that our old friends herd immunity and social responsibility have made their way back into the thread. Both of these concepts are flawed.

The main flaw in social responsiblity has already been pointed out on this thread by many posters; parents do not naturally put their own children at risk for the sake of others (and nor should they be emotionaly blackmailed into doing so). The whole concept is unethical given the unknown individual risk/benefit ratio. People who do not think that the procedure of vaccination carries a significant risk are misinformed (probably by the government) and need to go away and do some more reading.

On a more sinister level, I think the concept of social responsiblity encourages the suppression of information about vaccine risks, discourages research into identifying those susceptible to damage and leads to cases of damage going unreported and without help or recognition. Pretty irrespnsible really. It also encourages an exaggeration into the risks of infectious disease and a 'blame culture' amongst parents.

'Herd immunity' is much bandied about as a sort of trump card in these debates. Well, I ask all those who think this is a straightforward concept to come and explain it to me please. I don't think we can talk about herd immunity without specifying which diseases we are talking about as problems depend on the disease, the natural age group for infection and the age when a disease is most dangerous.

Something interesting is happening in the US at the moment as a consequence of chicken pox vaccination.

From this page of Barbara Loe Fisher's excellent blog;

"In the past few years, Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., founder and editor of Medical Veritas, published research in Vaccine and the International Journal of Toxicology documenting an increase in shingles (herpes zoster) in the U.S. after the states mandated use of chickenpox vaccine following the CDC's 1995 "universal use" recommendation. Goldman's research revealed that shingles, a painful nerve inflammation and rash that develops into pus-filled blisters that break open and form scabs and can cause three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally in a population when older children and adults have their chickenpox-induced immunity asymptomatically "boosted" by coming into contact with younger children infected with chicken pox. Dr. Goldman's findings, summarized in his article "The Case Against Universal Varicella Vaccination" (International Journal of Toxicology, 25:313-317, 2006) corroborate those of other independent researchers questioning the cost-benefit rationale for mandatory vaccination of all children with chickenpox vaccine."

Has me wondering if a similar natural 'booster' effect happens for other diseases too, seems logical.

I am very concerned about vaccine safety, but with respect I have never been able to understand anti-vaxers' opinion of herd immunity. they often claim diseases had almost been eradicated before the introduction of vaccines. Even if this were the case [and i'm sceptical] in today's world of frequent international travel and movement, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't have a resurgence of polio or diptheria if it were not for mass immunization. And that could be disastrous, obviously. And i do think if no one vaccinated against measles, more children would die. i know it can be a mild disease, but it can also be a vicious one, and this cannot really be denied - I was a healthy well nourished 11 year old when i got it and was seriously ill and in hospital with it. It would be great if more doctors knew about Vitamin A treatment, and tried it out on measles cases, but I have no idea if this would eradicate serious cases of the disease.

I am not suggesting this means everyone has a social responsibility to vaccinate, but I think it is difficult to deny that herd immunity is advantageous to the general population.

Would be interested in a robust alternative argument though!

ruty - Did you have measles (or MMR) vaccine at all?

not yet Cote - on medical advice [not gps obvously]. Will do a single measles vaccine when ds is a bit older.

[dues to ds's gut problems]

I meant to ask if you were ever vaccinated against measles.

Just wondering, because 11 seems an unusually advanced age to catch measles. It would make sense if you had the vaccine as a toddler and then immunity wore off and you caught measles at age 11, though.

that's an interesting question Cote, because I don' know. I assumed not, but recently found my baby vaccination card in my [deceased] mother's desk. My third baby pertussis/diptheria/polio vaccine and the measles vaccine boxes were not ticked. I asked my dad, and he said we moved houses at that point, but he thought I had probably had the vaccines at a new surgery when we moved. Can't ask my mum obviously so really don't know!