to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

[snickersnack]

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

Oh forgot to say that the US Institute of Medecine has conceeded the vaccine/autoimmune connection. I'll try to dig up the link later when I have time.

To me it's as plain as the nose on your face: the hows, whys and wherefores may still be a mystery -- but that there is a connection, it seems impossible to deny.

VVVQ- getting early diagnosis is still a problem. The question is whether the increase is real or it's a condition that's always been there but poorly recognised. I suspect its a combination. There probably has been some increase in recognition at the AS end of the spectrum (perhaps with some real increase too) but I can't see what children like ds1 would have been diagnosed with if not autism, and they would have had to have been diagnosed with something. And everyone I know who works with this group say it's increasing as well. I really think father has it right. I know I've linked to that article already but I do think its worth reading.

The timing for measles jab varies they fiddle with it quite a bit. It's not given before 12 months because antibodies from the mother interfere and stop an immune response developing. It works slightly better after 15 months than if given at 13 months. But they found it wasn't working as well as they'd anticipated and that's why the pre-school jabs are now given earlier. (Ditto hib- when introduced it was meant to be one jab for life, they then found immunity from the first jab often doesn't last through the second year- hence the hib booster introduction - they may need to introduce a further one I guess as the vaccinated generation grows up- children used to usually develop immunity by 5).

hang on link!

at the higher functioning end they've also tinkered about with the diagnostic criteria, in that SPD (Semantic Pragmatic Disorder) didn't use to be on the spectrum but now is. So that may be a source of slight increase in figures.

Thanks yurt.

I know that in long bygone days that diagnoses ranged from "possession by evil spirits" to insanity. And these for things we'd now diagnose as wildly different problems such as autism to pregnancy outside marriage and other such social ineptitudes.

I really dont know much about this subject. But it does interest me particularly because DD is atopic and has allergies. Now hearing issues have been discovered. I need to read more on all this, definitely.

This is all very recent though VVVQ. The big increase in ds1's school for example has taken place over the last 10-20 years. The 80's were a crime against fashion for sure, but they'd gone past possession by evil spirits.

One of the clearest signs for me was the guy who runs a residential unit for adults with severe/profound autism. It's like adult school and he very clearly said the reason that these were now being opened (and more would be opened) was because numbers were increasing so the demand was so much higher. At £300 per day per client those sorts of things don't get opened without a need for them. The costs are frightening. Adults with severe autism tend to be far less independent than adults with DS for example.

crikey! Yes, that really is recent.

You see, when I think of autism in the 80's, I'm afraid it takes me immediately to Rain Man - adults in institutions shut away from society somewhat.

The rain man analogy must piss you off royally, no?

noonar - It makes you rational:

"This finding formalizes an argument that has previously been made qualitatively; namely, it is impossible to eradicate a disease through voluntary vaccination when individuals act according to their own interests. In situations where vaccination is perceived to be more risky than contracting the disease (r > 1), one would expect, even without the aid of a model, that no parents would vaccinate their children."

The only significant changes since the 80's are vaccinations, and, ultrasound scans, that I can think of off the top of my head. Ultrasound scans have been considered safe.

The "leaky gut" thing really is the key, isnt it? Allowing in toxins that are doing damage somewhere along the line (I am oversimplifying, I know).

I imagine im going to be shot down in flames here but here goes

1. Autism isnt new , 40 plus years ago a child with autism was sent to a home ( these were closed down and now they live in smaller homes within the community ). Forty years ago they didnt call it autism ,however that doesnt mean it didnt exist.
2. Vaccinations save lives , this is a fact.
3. Everytime you give your child a medicine or vaccine you take the risk that they will have a adverse reaction to it, there is no medicine or vaccine on the market anywhere in the world that claims to have no possible adverse reaction. What we need to do is support the tiny minority that do suffer as a result of these adverse reactions.
4. Dog poo and toxoplasmosis , your child is as likely to get run over by a car than contract this , we should be encouraging responsible dog ownership where people have their dogs wormed every three months and pick up the poo their dog produces as opposed to demonising dog owners per se .
5. Every year an adult who wasnt vaccinated against polio ,contracts polio as a result of coming in to contact with feaces of a recently imunnised child ,are we suggesting we stop polio vaccinations in order to prevent this rare occurance and allow polio to cripple thousands of previously healthy children?
6. I will say it again , vaccines save lives.

Included in the medicines are calpol !!!

'vaccinations save lives,thats a fact'-evidence?please?

justwater - Let me guess - You just read OP?

If you have read a bit of the recent conversation here, you should know your post is not really relevant to what is being discussed.

Autism was first identified and named as a disorder in 1943 by the psychiatrist Leo Kanner, who said he had started to notice the specific group of "symptoms" in 1938. Vaccinations manufactured with mercury were first used in the early 1930s.

Glad stuffillama made the above point. Interestingly Kanner's identification of a disorder was based on 11 cases, 1 fewer than Dr Wakefield. Also several of these cases had environmental exposure to mercury as a notable characteristic.

See here for original article.

See here for commentary from article writer.

Also agree with you about pinning down fleximum (not for personal reasons of course but just because I think she is representative a viewpoint that holds certain opinions but doesn't really have evidence to back them up).

Also agree that 'it is as plain as the nose on your face' that there is a vaccine link. Didn't want to say so in case I come across as too passionate . (Joke reference to earier post).

I'm surprised that nobody has commented on this so forgive me for repeating a link but I think www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/the-next-big-autism-bomb_b_93627.html
this is quite important. Especially as one of the potential government recommendations would be to follow Wakefield's advice of well spaced out single vaccines in the place of MMR.

"What we need to do is support the tiny minority that do suffer as a result of these adverse reactions. "

Agreed but at the moment if your child ends up in ICU within days of your child being given MMR chances are you will be told yo are imagining it. Fact. It's happened to 2 people I know personally. If your child ends up with major bowel problems within weeks of tour child receiving MMR chances are you will be told you are imagining it. Fact. It's happened to one person I know other than the previous 2 allready mentioned).

"Every year an adult who wasnt vaccinated against polio ,contracts polio as a result of coming in to contact with feaces of a recently imunnised child ,are we suggesting we stop polio vaccinations in order to prevent this rare occurance and allow polio to cripple thousands of previously healthy children?"

Only if you're using OPV. The UK was one of the last to switch to IPV (which they then used asa cover to remove thimerosal from vaccines- watching the govt idiot spokesperson on the news that day was the day I lost any hope of the truth ever being revealed. It never will be. hey ho.

There just aren't enough icons in the mn lexicon for all the and about your post Yurt.

"Forty years ago they didnt call it autism ,however that doesnt mean it didnt exist."

Have you read my comments about people who have seen the changes in the population of ds1's SLD/PMLD school. "where are all these autiastic children coming from?' as one governor said to me (having been the parent of a child at the school in the 980's/90's) "whne my dd was at the school there were a few in the entire school., now I find classloads'.

"more provision for adutls with severe autism will be opened because the numbers are so much higher" said the prinicipal of an adult unit.

Or we can all pretend it isn't happening. These are not people who could have been missed.

I'm probably about to start a thread on polio in the next week or so, for personal reasons. I'm going to do my usual hunt but when it comes to it, if there's any info or hints to links off the top of anyone's head, I'd much appreciate it. Polio is my wobbly one. But I know how much you all do in your own fields so would not like to give anyone extra work. Anyway, that's for then.

Justwaterformethanks you mention contracting polio through contact with feaces of a recently vaccinated child. The vaccine responsible for this, oral polio vaccine or OPV, is no longer used in the UK for this very reason.

Unfortunately we still think it is good enough for developing countries though.

Vaccines may save lives but the debate is much wider than that.

I know Yurt -- brick walls and headbanging, anyone?

YYYQ- yes really recent rise. Which is why I trust it. Once you're a parent of ds1's school you're always parent iykwim. It takes children from 3-19. There's a memorial garden for all the children who have died (funeral of a 3 year old today in fact). I have had the privilege of talking directly to parents who had children there in the 80's and 90's - it was not the same school population.