to be cross my ds has measles because other parents didn't vaccinate their children

[snickersnack]

He's 11 months old, poor little thing . Fortunately he's going to be ok - he got off quite lightly, I think - but it was scary and he was really poorly for a day or so. Spent 10 hours in A&E yesterday while he had chest x-rays, blood tests, IV fluids etc. Now we're just waiting to see if his sister,who's 2, gets it - she's had one dose of MMR already so fingers crossed she's immune.

We live in an area where immunisation rates are among the lowest in the country. Now I have to go and tell all parents of the other babies he's met recently that their children might be at risk as well...

There is loads of data, it just doesn't get publisised. Many factors are involved, MMR is just one of them.

The data supports the theory that the cumulative effect of vaccines and thimerosal/aluminium/etc load leads to damage in a whole host of body mechanisms. Different people are affected in different ways depending on genetic make up and resulting weaknesses or susceptibility. MMR, for some children, is 'the straw that breaks the camel's back' if you like. Damage from thimerosal affects the body's reaction to viruses (measles is the most studied).

This guy said it better than me;

"How do the immune system and the neurological system interact? We already talked a little bit about this when we looked at the Vargas study49, but what about viruses? The immune cell patterns in children with autism are consistent with a viral mechanism.50 Does measles virus play a role?51,52 This is one of the biggest controversies in autism. All of the epidemiological studies seem to say no, but again they have significant design flaws. We continue to find vaccine-strain measles virus in the cerebrospinal fluid and in the enlarged lymph nodes in the bowels of autistic children and not in controls.53,54,55,56 MMR antibodies are associated with anti-brain autoimmune antibodies in autistic children.57 Does that mean that MMR is the cause of autism? We don?t know, but it is associated, and since measles virus is not present in NT kids, it merits further study.

Here is an emerging model for autism: I call it the multiple hit hypothesis. Imagine an embryo with genetically susceptible chromosomes that prevent it from detoxifying normally. The embryo will be exposed to things like mercury from maternal fish consumption and maternal amalgams, mercury from its mother?s flu vaccine and possibly her rhogam shot, antibiotics given to the mother, and other placental toxins that we don?t even know about. Babies need to be able to detoxify almost from conception.

Children born between 1991 and 2003 were hit with 25 mcg of ethyl mercury in the hepatitis B shot the day they were born. Some are exposed to antibiotics soon after birth. Babies are exposed to toxins in breast milk. (I certainly don?t mean that you should stop breast-feeding because there are many more benefits than risks, but the reality is that it?s an exposure to toxins. I?m sure that there are toxins in formula as well). All of these exposures start to weaken the immune system of a susceptible child, creating early inflammation. They start to accumulate some of the toxins that they can?t get rid of. Remember that the immune system and the detoxification system really take six months before they start to become mature. As the child gets older, he or she receives many more immunizations. Food antigens are introduced, like casein from cow?s milk. They get repeated viral infections. They develop chronic ear infections and are given multiple courses of antibiotics. The antibiotics damage their gut even more, allowing more toxins to enter their system.

So the child is developing a leaky gut, tissue damage is getting worse, the immune system is growing weaker, and autoimmune reactions are starting. Then a lot of kids experience a catastrophic event. Either in the form of a significant illness or a live virus vaccine. The immune system is overwhelmed and the child rapidly goes downhill. Plenty of parents report a gradual deterioration, but many kids seem to develop autism after a particular event. They go into the hospital or they get an MMR shot and they?re never the same again. But I don?t think that the illness or the shot is the only cause, I think autism is the end result of this developing series of reactions."

This is also interesting as it looks at the similarities between mercury poisoning and autistic behaviours and metabolic dysfunction.

Also this report by congressman Dan Burton, the report was the result of a three year investigation and was presented to government. It is very long but easy to read as it is designed to be heard by non specialists. Pages 32,33 and 34 touch on the introduction of Hep B and Hib vaccine with their heavy thimerosal load coinciding with a subsequent peak in autism prevelence.

There is plenty of data that examines aspects of HOW mercury containing vaccines damage children, WHERE that damage takes place and WHY the MMR vaccine (or some other viral insult) is the final straw.

I have linked to huge long lists of references to all this in previous posts. In past posts on this thread I have been accused of ignoring or dismissing evidence, well right back at you!

Thanks Yurt for expanding on your previous comment. I thought that was what you meant but just wanted to make sure. I have heard numerous stories of children who remain untreated for their gut issues simply because they are also autistic. It is inexcusable.

Oh and let's not forgot the thousands of anecdotal stories as mentioned by Cote.

An isolated anecdote can be put down to coincidence. Several anecdotes may continue to be dismissed as coincidental. A long series of remarkably similar anecdotes is the basis for a hypothesis and accepted in a court of law as evidence.

Glad your DS is getting better snickers. When my DS was diagnosed with measles (earlier in thread), I was really worried too, because the media really emphasise the 'killer childhood disease' angle. And I'm not saying that measles isn't a serious disease - when I caught it from DS it made me dangerously ill - but I had thought that it killed children, not adults. Actually apparently it's milder if you get it as a child, and DS wasn't seriously ill at all, although he was quite poorly. I'd seen that flipping 'we all fall down' TV advert when I was younger and was really worried that he was going to be deaf & blind. But he's fine, and so were all the littl'uns who caught it from him at nursery. There was only me with permanent damage (ie the only one who'd had MMR! Curses!) Best of luck with your DS continued recovery.

Sorry to hear about your experience with measles thebecster.

I wonder when we will hear about this development to the information surrounding the Poling Case in the mainstream press? It is pretty explosive stuff.

I would love to hear to what the very pro-vaccine side ascribes the autism spectrum / allergy epidemic. More diagnosis is starting to look a bit weak even for them, surely?

I'm sorry but despite the impression you might get reading these threads, there is not an "autism epidemic". Yes, it is more common than it was but it could not be classed as an epidemic. A terrible diagnosis to have to deal with but not an epidemic. As for the increase in allergies, I hop I don't see anyone putting that down to vaccinations. The human immune system is an extremely complex thing but the papers I have read (I studied immunology) suggests the more likely cause is a reduction in exposure to dirt and diseases in childhood while the immune system is still developing.

Oh, and I don't think anyone is suggesting collective hallucinations but yes, it would be a very normal response to your child becoming ill to search for something to blame for that.

The people I personally know who link MMR with their chid's autism paint a very different picture to the other cases of autism I am (all too familiar) with. 2 had HDU/ICU admissions within days of the MMR - , another's had very severe bowel changes within weeks of the MMR and has been shown to have ulcerations.

It's a very different picture to other cases.

Also wrt 'more babies surviving early'. It might have some effect, but these children often have other physical type problems. I see them as different again (and easily distinguishable) from an autistic child like ds1 who has no dysmorphic features, does not have learning disabilties in the original sense of the word, does not have physical disabilties - but has severe autism. I want to know why his group is increasing. Suspect there may be many triggers- but none of the children that I know who are like him have been premature. I do know children who are less severely affected (so have mild delay) who had difficult births, and I know children who are very profoundly disabled who had difficult births but they're not autistic.

Flexi I can't believe you've written what you've written! The incidence used to be between 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 10,000 -- the figures are vague as it was so rare.

Now it's estimated (from SN and educational services supplied -- I don't believe diagnoses are counted as such) to be 1 in 166, with 1 in 100 for boys.

That's an epidemic. When you're so frightened of small measles outbreaks, those figures really do point to an epidemic.

The biggest reduction in exposure to dirt and diseases in childhood occurred between the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. Why was this not accompanied by a grand expansion in atopic presentation?

So every single one of those parents is lying or mistaken? Every single one? Flexi you must believe this in order to believe that MMR has never triggered a case of autism.

I hope I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you are almost trying to get a reaction/pick a fight. I have not at any time suggested that parents of children with autism are lying.
I find it very hard to believe that the incidence of autism is as high as you are suggesting but would be happy to be shown data to contradict my impression.
What has changed in the last 20 years or so is the exposure to everyday dirt and other children. Our children now spend their time enclosed in double glazed, carpeted homes rather than being outside playing with other children.

The vast majority of parents I have met with children with autism (and I've met a lot) have not blamed anything. Those that have, have seen something quite different go on with their child. You can't dream up and imagine big bowel changes. You can't dream up seizures that are so long they land your child in ICU (with no seizure before and no seizure afterwards- just one very long one within days of the MMR). It's madness to write off those cases as just looking for something to blame. IN some cases the parents I know have been told they're imaging it, in others they've been told unofficially that it probably was MMR, in some cases they've been told one thing which has been followed by the medics changing their mind. Of course they're rare events, but it doesn't mean they don't happen.

It's also wrong to assume that parents are desperately looking for something to blame. We wanted to know what triggered ds1's regression, which factors might be involved because we wanted to prevent the same thing happening to his siblings. It was nothing to do with blame or egsshell personalities or mothers who can't accept their child's severe disability. So far we have managed to avoid history repeating itself. Despite ds3's leaky gut.

The vast majority of medics I have met haven't had the faintest idea about autism. From the GP's who wave dolls in ds1's face, to the SALTs who try to do 'feed the moster' games to the GP who told me that girls don't get autism. I pay attention these days to people with hands on experience. Not medics.

1 in 100 is the official figure now. 1 in 80 is the 'unofficial' figure. Will look up data later. Recent academic papers have quoted things like 1 in 250. It's hard to get an exact figure because they're not kept. Our LEA has no idea how any autistic children it has to cater for, but if you ask in special school or in adult residential/day care services- people working on the ground will tell you the numbers are rocketing. It's a very expensive condition to provide care for.

Read a paper this week written in 1994- the incidence in that was quoted at 1 in 1000. I underlined it and ! next to it.

Fair comment Yurt. The fact of the matter is that we see very little of it (as a student I spent one whole day in a school autistic unit as my total experience). I feel very sad for you that you and other people have had bad experiences with doctors. I wish that as a profession we were all better at admitting when we don't know something. I meet professional patients quite frequently (I work with adults, mainly the elderly) and I hope that I do give them credit where they clearly have much more experience of their own condition than I do.

here's the 250 figure but that was revised to 1 in 100 shortly afterwards by others. (Big difference I know).

I agree that diagnosis has improved at the AS end of the spectrum but no-one is answering me as to why the population in ds1's school has increased massively (used to be a few in the entire school now ASD makes up entire classes). The local MLD school has changed its designation to ASD now to cope with the numbers and that's also a population that would have been hard to miss.

here US rate 1 in 150 from CDC.

Here NAS says 1 in 100 in children

That's pretty high. I have a paper somewhere detailing the increasing cost to the economy of autism- most money is spent on severe autism- and that's increasing each year.

Cut and pasted from the NAS website:

Estimated prevalence rate in the UK
The indication from recent studies is that the figures cannot be precisely fixed, but it appears that a prevalence rate of around 1 in 100 is a best estimate a best estimate of the prevalence in children. No prevalence studies have ever been carried out on adults.

here, 1 in 80 at primary, 1 in 268 at secondary That's pretty worrying if the differences can't be explained by differences in diagnosis between the 2 groups (and it would be hard to see how it could when they're pretty close in age and diagnosis still takes years).

INcidentally- and this is a genuine request for comment from the medics. I know quite a few autistic children who have had reallly unusual medical conditions - things that would usually be described as rare. Most involve inflammation or the immune system. Examples that spring to mind include probable - dermatologist diagnosed and treated- eczema herpeticum covering the whole body (although this followed a weirdy swelling of a mole and a leaking of clear fluid- regresison followed this), but other things in other children like kawasaki syndrome or a friend's child who had pericarditis (is that what it's called- inflammation of the something to do with the heart- apparently rare in children). etc etc.

Why would these things seem to affect autistic children so much more than the general population? The autistic children affected have commonly had other biomedical oddities involved in the development of their condition as well iyswim.

I am absolutely not trying to pick a fight, though I can understand why you might think that. I'm trying to pin you down, in the way that you ask very direct and pertinent questions of those who question vaccines.

I still think you're avoiding the question, not out of fear or bolshiness, but because you are at a loss really, and cannot explain it, and don't want to think that it could be induced by something we do to children. I think that's the impulse behind the denial, and seeking to find any other reason at all. You don't want to think this is what it could be.

Occam's razor says to me: this is the most likely cause.

I am absolutely not trying to pick a fight, though I can understand why you might think that. I'm trying to pin you down, in the way that you ask very direct and pertinent questions of those who question vaccines.

I still think you're avoiding the question, not out of fear or bolshiness, but because you are at a loss really, and cannot explain it, and don't want to think that it could be induced by something we do to children. I think that's the impulse behind the denial, and seeking to find any other reason at all. You don't want to think this is what it could be.

Occam's razor says to me: this is the most likely cause.

Yurt wrt to figures on increasing incidence of autism - what are the historical factors - if any - due to lack of diagnosis of autism? (I am sure there are only scant records kept, but wonder whether diagnosis has improved/speeded up).

Why is the MMR given at 12 months and not earlier/later?

Fleximum are you reading my posts and the links they contain (to published studies)?

Even the government has had to accept that the 'improved diagnosis' theory has been proven wrong, even Eric Fombonne who was one of the people involved in the creation of the theory has had to admit that it does not explain current (highly concerning) figures. Your information is out of date. The increase is real and well documented.

There is evidence that points to vaccination playing a role in the increase in allergic disease and other autoimmune conditions. Pertussis vaccine combined with the adjuvant and response stimulator aluminium plus the damaging (and allergy inducing) synergestic effect of thimerosal is just one example.

Can you please link to a study that does any more than speculate on the 'hygiene theory'? Or perhaps a study that describes the mechanism in how it manifests in the immune system and the rest of the body?

oh goodness. So pleased i am just back from holiday and have missed this....

don't let your blood pressure rise by reading it pagwatch!

i am genuinely very concerned about the side effects of immunisation. i was worried sick about injecting my tiny babies with live vaccines as i'd read soem very scary reports about the correlation between SIDs and immunisation in various countries.

i have never been complacent about the whole herd immunity thing. i've never really given that any thought, tbh. i have, quite simply, always been to scared to get my children immunised.

as parents, we have views about which dangers ( whether real , proven or unproven) that we are prepared to expose our children to. i have made my decsion based on my perception of the risks associated with immunisation.

i don't expect everyone to agree / understand, but does this really make me selfish??