To be concerned about a new fresh hell for female school pupils?

[Villamariawine]

I’ve name changed for this as I don’t want the assumption to be I am one of the parents. I’m not. But I am the mother of a 6th former DD.

From The Times today - it is behind a paywall so I’ve included some of the salient points. I’ve removed the poll because frankly I’d be aghast if anyone thinks I am being unreasonable.
Two private schools are at the centre of a criminal investigation into the alleged making and sharing of deepfake pornographic images. Police are investigating claims that the deepfakes were created at a boys’ school by someone manipulating images taken from the social media accounts of pupils at a girls’ school.
The schools are in the same area of the country. Detectives became involved seven weeks ago when staff at the girls’ school alerted police and social services to reports that deepfake images and videos were in circulation at the boys’ school. About a dozen girls are thought to have been victims.

The report goes on to say:

Both schools are spending tens of thousands of pounds on crisis management PR firms and London law firms to manage the fallout. It is understood police asked the schools not to undertake internal inquiries or disciplinary measures during their investigation.

And

Police declined to comment on claims that they had been unable to recover phones and computer equipment of potential value to the investigation.

And

A spokesman for the boys’ school said: “Were any allegation to be received, the school would always take all appropriate steps to ensure the matter was fully and thoroughly investigated, including through making reports to, and taking advice from, the relevant external agencies and authorities. The school will always fully co-operate with any police investigation or directions.”

I’m not interested in which schools these are (The Times has not named them) and for the sake of the girls, please don’t name them. I’d wager that the lack of progress into some sort of justice for the girls is why The Times knows about the situation.

My AIBU is that this apparently happened at the start of May. Exams will have taken place, pupils will have left, important choices will have had to be made and these poor girls have had to deal with this on top of everything and the perpetrators are seemingly facing no consequences almost two months on. The Police have moved very quickly on other matters, why not this one? It is a criminal offence to even make deepfake images of a child, let alone distribute them. If there is nothing amiss, why are PR firms and Law Firms involved? Why would the girls school need to hire them? Surely their first thought is for the welfare on their pupils who are involved through no fault of their own? These images could follow them around forever if they were created of the girls when they were over the age of 18. Was nothing learned by schools after ‘everyone’s invited?’ about trying to cover up bad behaviour?

I’m dismayed that girls and their parents are being subjected to this new fresh hell.

This is unfortunately the natural consequence of many parents abdicating the parenting of their child to smart phone and social media.

There needs to be urgent legislation to ban smart phones and social media for the under 16s.

I suspect in a few decades giving a smart phone to your kids will have the same moral negative as allowing them to smoke.

Hard agree. Its widespread just that us middle class mums don’t know about it and dont want to believe (some of) our boys are capable of doing it. I don’t think denial or being defensive helps either. Our children are being damaged by unrestricted phone access and technology and no one is doing much about it. Agree future generations will look back in horror at us.

This is been happening since photoshop was invented. It's not a new fresh hell.

The solution to this, as it always has been, is to raise better boys. Teach them that this behaviour is unacceptable and gross. Until boys/men are vilified for this kind of misogynistic abusive bullshit they will continue to do it.

I think it’s only natural for parents not to want to believe that their children can be sex offenders. We think of them as the most vile of criminals - that can’t be my son.

I also think teenage boys are stupid enough not to realise how wrong this is until they are caught. Their brains aren’t capable of processing the potential consequences of this.

I think the solution is for parents to realise the danger of this kind of thing and educate their sons. It’ll be a very uncomfortable conversation, probably with a child you consider too young to be having it with. But better than than face criminal prosecution for something they thought was a stupid teenage prank and don’t realise until after the fact that it’s a sexual offence.

Agree with this - schools and parents need to be continually confirming the law as things like this and stealthing become more likely to be prosecuted.

On this though, why are some men seemingly unable to process consequences? It does seem to be a specifically male thing to not think about what happens the next day to themselves or anyone else after an action that affects others.

I meant teenagers generally. The human brain isn’t fully formed until we reach our mid 20’s which is why teenagers get themselves into so much trouble. Physically they are adults but mentally they are not.

That's not evidence, that's an anecdote.

Everyone seems to have missed the point that the images were taken from girls social media. Do nothing to do with the school -unless it was done in school and that’s a reason for not allowing phones in school.
The pics on social media are the problem, no the schools.

)And why they should not get the vote)

So what you’re saying, in essence, is that women speaking about and bringing attention to male sexual violence is just as bad if not actually worse than the violence itself? Because the nasty mean women are making the poor men feel bad by pointing it out l? And we should always always be at pains to point out that “it’s a small minority “ and “not all men” as a condition of pointing out the increasing levels of technology-aided sexual terrorism that women and girls are subjected to?

Hmmm.

Viewing deepfakes is not the same as creating deepfakes. Anyone who is found to have created a deepfake should be prosecuted. However, while the sharing and viewing of deepfakes is widespread, the number of creators is likely to be extremely small.

These men may well "hate women", but that doesn't mean it's right or fair to draw the conclusion that all men hate women.

Well this is a new can of worms but I think the age at which you can enlist and potentially die for your country should align with the voting age.

Perhaps this thread is evidence for raising the former rather than lowering the latter

"So what you’re saying, in essence"

I could have stopped reading here as I knew the rest of your post would constitute a strawman argument...

But for clarity, no I don't think "women speaking about and bringing attention to male sexual violence" is a problem.

No one is saying all men hate women. Some do though. Enough men are doing this to warrant legislation in parliament and bbc serious documentaries being made so your denials look pretty weak. God I wish it was t true too.

Brain maturation is physiologically linked to puberty, and girls have earlier puberty. So our brains actually mature earlier.

Without in any way excusing the vile behaviour under discussion a long time ago a male friend tried to tell me what a driver of male behaviour testosterone is, especially in the early and mid teen years when boys are learning to regulate their new bodies. He said females simply cannot imagine it. And testosterone is linked to risk taking behaviour of all kinds, and stupid judgment. So that may be a further factor. Again, in no way an excuse

Girls in the younger generation within my family have also no interest in relationships with boys.

IMO the big elephant in the room (noted on this thread) is online porn.

It's just not the same beast as the old Playboy and Hustler mags back in our day. Online porn is overwhelmingly violent and degrading to women. Porn is the biggest sector of the internet.

Yet parents are giving their kids smart phones which give them access to online porn. Kids are getting their first sex ed from porn, learning that is what sex looks like. The boys learn to degrade and the girls learn to perform. Repeated exposure will wire their brains and developing sexuality to orient towards such abusive and degrading acts, and if they get addicted to the domaine rush for long enough it (may be?) impossible to rewire their brains.

I have the wonderful Gail Dines to thank for a wealth of knowledge about how porn is being accessed, used and how it damages people.

Parents need to step up and realise the danger of private unlimited smart phone usage for kids. They do not need these devices, and never should have access in privacy of their rooms. They do not need iPads nor laptops in any private spaces either. The only phone underage kids need is an old school flip phone for emergency use.

Governments could assist in solutions. The technology is available for porn sites to require selfie ID pics with photo ID before entry. Governments could even ban or block porn sites entirely.

But IMO too many people (mostly men) in power also watch porn regularly and they're not going to do anything to restrict access. They like it.

And the vichy feminists with their "sex work is work" bs can also shoulder some of the blame for the current mess we're in IMO.

Porn is driving too much behaviour that is abusive, and is damaging to the developing sexuality of young people. It's a public health crisis but almost never acknowledged as such.

Then perhaps you can explain to me how your comment wasn’t just the bog standard “not all men” deflection that is deployed as standard whenever the issue of male sexual violence is raised?

You said that demonising men is just as bad if not worse than the actual violence itself. With respect, I disagree.

It is criminal and students are taught that to share images of anyone under 18 is illegal. A decent school will involve police if images are shared.

I remember a case where a girl was videoed on a phone performing a sexual act on her boyfriend. Now this particular act used to be legal under 16 but isn't anymore. The video was then shared.

These sorts of incidents are rare but probably happen more than people outside the school system realise. And they are dealt with properly. This issue is probably in the news because of the school's attempts at a cover up.

Lara I agree with e word. Cameron to be fair tried to do something about this but just couldn’t. Seems crazy that parents and even politicians seem unable to comprehensively act.

It’s not just pupils - I’m a teacher and the possibility of this was referred to this year in our IT and safeguarding training. How would I prove that the video that had been faked wasn’t me? Or the photos?

You could, as could the girls, but it would be degrading and humiliating to ask you to do so. Presumably you haven’t got the body of the porn star that’s been grafted onto your face.

Can you possibly evidence this? From what I can tell there are multiple sites and apps springing up offering ability to deepfake, so there must be quite a demand.

There’s a whole industry doing it apparently - online. Well according to the bbc documentary I listened to. We (so your average over 40 woman) just don’t know about it until some of filth inevitably seeps out ie this story in the msm about the school.

What would constitute evidence?

I am absolutely aware that sexual violence and harassment are not always well handled by police, institutions of all kinds including schools, universities/colleges or workplaces. And this means victims don’t receive justice and perpetrators get away with it. The victims can/often are actively harmed by coming forward because of how they are treated by the system from the police to the courts. I absolutely understand that. It’s possible to understand that but still believe that being outraged that an investigation into something which is potentially quite complex would not be concluded, the alleged perpetrators charged and brought to trial in a period of a few months, is both unrealistic and unjustified.

Furthermore, none of those facts mentioned means that an alleged perpetrator can be made to “face consequences” on the basis of an allegation of wrongdoing alone. The only point at which it is appropriate or possible to punish them through the legal system is when they are tried and convicted. I don’t understand what is controversial about that statement? I’m well aware of the issues in relation to low levels of prosecution-and even lower conviction rates- for rape/sexual assault and harassment, but the principle stands for all people being prosecuted. It has to for the justice system to have even a semblance of function. There would be chaos if punishments were meted out for every accusation made, without any investigation or trial.

The only “consequence” that can be meted out by the school until they have evidence of who is involved is to suspend any pupils alleged to be involved. If they are being told they can’t investigate (rightly so) then they probably can’t expel those pupils. Depending on what the school know to be true, they may not be in a position to suspend. They absolutely cannot name any pupils alleged to be involved, nor disclose what actions they have taken. Same as any school. Rightly so.

I have no idea if the school(s) have behaved appallingly or not. I have no idea if the police have been incompetent or behaved callously to the victims. I’m just saying that I don’t think the fact the investigation hasn’t been quick enough, nor the punishment swift enough, for your liking necessarily means the police are not doing a good job/not taking it seriously. I’m not sure that you can conclude one way or another.

So, I agree it is a terrible thing that these young women have been subjected to this criminal behaviour and I also agree that this need to be investigated and those believed to be responsible must charged and put on trial. If convicted, they should be punished and it should be meaningful. I don’t agree that rich young men at private school should forfeit their right to a trial before being publicly punished, on the basis that they are rich young men who are alleged to have committed a crime against young women.