To be absolutely looking forward to this Tory wipeout

[Viviennemary]

It isn't just me I'm sure but I am totally gleeful at this anticipated annihilation of the Tory party. I did vote Tory last time. But absolutely can't wait to see them routed. They've been awful. How could they have Liz Truss happen. She should have been chucked out the party.

Does anyone actually think this, though? Public services are in a dire state and it’s going to take a long time and a lot of money and effort to turn them around.

No doubt the right-wing media outlets will give Labour an extremely hard time for not being able to work miracles overnight. But you’d have to be pretty daft to fall for that.

"Windrush only deported 164 people"

It threatened far more and had a far wider impact on this. It also clearly demonstrated what the government was willing to do to migrants.

"ou cannot conflate mistakes made that were rectified with our general policy on allowing immigration and how we integrate them."

You cannot conflate direct government policies, such as the ones implemented with society making it easier for integration, not direct government policy. In the same period of time the government have increased thresholds on incomes before allowing spouses to join a worker, and many more incremental changes that make it harder for migrants to settle and live here.

"And please on the EU 'leaving' scheme - the EU 'othered' anyone not fortunate enough to have a European passport. "

Again, this is just utter rot. The EU allows freedom of movement between EU countries because that is part of Single Market membership. Individual countries manage their own immigration laws from outside the EU.

"I didn't support Brexit but always thought it deeply unfair that before then my Bulgarian friend could bring her mother over just on a Bulgarian passport - her mother didn't even need to prove she spoke English or had a job"

Actually, that one is down to British application of the rules, FOM applies to labour not people, the UK could have stopped people bringing parents in any time they liked. But they didn't. Funny how you have confused this eh?

! "Nothing is more unfair than one immigrant group have more legal rights than another for doing the same jobs. Nowhere else in the world has this but the EU."

Actually many trade agreements make immigration of citizens between nations easier, again, you are talking rot.

" In fact in no other country is it as easy to get skilled labour in, and give them the chance to build their own life as part of wider society."

You'll need to back this assertion with evidence, otherwise Hitchen's razor applies. The same with people being more segregated in other countries, I thought one of the big issues of the right about UK immigration was that there were issues with integration?

"It's a pity that instead of asking me what would matter and trying to learn different perspectives - the minute I didn't fit your narrative of immigration, you shut it down. Like most left wing voters I know."

Appeal to authority BS based on individual experience and a lot of self attribution bias. Oh and also demonstrating fundamentally large holes in knowledge about how governments and trade deals operate.

Finished with a sweeping generalisation.

Not actually very good at this are you?

If you know you want the next government to be Labour not Tory, turn out and vote accordingly. Don’t stay at home because you don’t want a Labour landslide. Don’t underestimate the impact of the shy Tories

Agree once again, @Cattenberg, but god knows where it leaves those of us who genuinely don't want ANY of the current options

I don't imagine I'm alone in this, but not to vote at all is anathema and spoiling the paper by writing " none of these" would be pointless, so frankly I'm in a bit of a bind

50% of the population have a below average IQ.

The other 50% think they are so clever they know it all and don't need to listen to reasonable arguments!

Yes people think like this.
Right now the world is such Govenments all over reacting to events not making them happen.
Russia is at war.

Immigration is at an all time high.
Look at Sweden it was always a great place, now has so many crimes .
France have called a snap election, as major troubles.

USA could vote Trump in.
Labour will not be able to wave a magic wand. They can't change the world. So just wait and see.

those of us who genuinely don't want ANY of the current options
@Puzzledandpissedoff that being the case I think we should default to the least worst option.
The message sent by abstaining is along the lines of 'we're not paying attention- do whatever you like'. I think that those who hold power will always be prone to corruption and so we must always hold their feet to the fire and scrutinize them at every possible opportunity.

Exactly.

We literally are in the position we are now because David Cameron's Tories didn't get a solid majority. He wouldn't have felt he needed to piss about with referendums if they'd had majorities of 80 in 2010 and 2015. The lack of a majority is why the ERG lot were able to exert so much influence on him. Compare and contrast that with the three preceding Labour governments, who were able to ignore and marginalise the left of the party because their votes weren't needed.

The 2019-24 Tories have ended up in hock to the right even with a comfortable, albeit shrinking majority. But that's because the soft right were deliberately chucked out.

I hope there are plenty of Portillo moments. I was around for the actual Portillo moment.
Snacks and wine already planned. Day off the following day.

@LakieLady - do you honestly want the country run by people who have only worked as bureaucrats in the public sector? People who have no knowledge of economics, medicine, engineering, agriculture? No diplomatic experience?

The Wall of Reality.

I’ve always voted conservative, but I’m really not sure now.

labour are just as bad, people believe they are for the people, and the take from the rich and give to the poor, unlike the conservatives who give to the rich, well I think I class about in the middle, I’m not poor but I’m anything but rich, so I won’t be swayed by this theory.

labour have a history of high taxes and borrowing, last time they were in power this country sank into so much debt which we are still trying to claw out off.

all parties make such amazing promises, but where does the money come from ?,

im really really unsure still at the moment.

Not true. A healthy opposition ensures a government doesn't lean into becoming a dictatorship. It provides an important balance.

And, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Tory opposition. Could be, yes, but could equally be another party if people choose that. Also any Tories who do get voted back in, given the predicted large Labour win, will have motivation to reassess and change direction. Both Tory and Labour parties have within-party divisions.

Also on a local constitution basis, even if the national party isn't someone's cup of tea, a good local MP is worth voting for. One who engages with their constituents, listens to their local concerns, and is easily available to speak to and meet with constituents. Whichever party.

Main thing is that regardless of which party is in government, it is very bad for democracy if there's no healthy opposition. That's equally true for a Tory or Labour government (or in the unlikely event of a different party forming government).

@Nanaboots im in the middle as well but i care more about the poor than the rich. I’d rather my taxes went on helping those in poverty than paying Tory supporters for useless PPE!

as for the economy- it’s proven historically to be stronger under Labour, the world banking crash might have had more of an impact than the UK in that instance

Agree with much that's being said regarding we need an effective opposition but I do think the lib dens would provide that. I think tories in opposition will be bitter and bloody minded rather than acting in best interest of the country (hell they haven't done that in power!!)

I'll admit I love Rayner one of the few genuine working class socialists in the Labour Party!

Not a huge fan of starker fence sitter extraordinaire, but I'm hoping he'd be more decisive as a leader of the party in govt.

I wasn't a fan of Blair or new labour. Felt he was a false person (proven right there) and they were leaving behind working class roots (right there too)

Ideally I'd have liked to be able to vote for a genuinely working class socialist party which no longer exists in uk since at least the 70's!

As a disabled benefits recipient I've spent too long worried sick about money and struggling, I'm drowning in debt just to afford to live. I'd love to work and could (within certain limitations but I could do certain jobs IF I were supported properly back into the ranks of the employed) I'm job hunting again now and worried sick how I'll manage financially even if I get a job as UC is such a fucking inflexible shit show!

I also worry about voter complacency and every time I've seen "tories defo out" type posts on sm whether by friends/family or certain pages I am quick to say "not a foregone conclusion people have to get out and vote!"

Don't even get me started on the photo ID CRAP - esp as sunak gave administrators sod all time to get organised for a GE (I believe that was deliberate!)

It's such a shame isn't it. It's the backwards and in heels thing, she's done a remarkable job to get where she is and should be commended for that not judged.

Hear hear!

and if you voted for them, you largely got what you could have expected

This is why I never understand anyone who isn't independently wealthy voting Tory! It's shooting yourself in the foot!

I think the rise in age of retirement/state pension age and the way older women have been screwed on pensions may be seriously denting the grey vote for tories. Plus this generation of pensioners are more...rebellious? Than previous ones being younger side of boomer generation? Certainly talking to the pensioners I know seems to be the case, but then they are also mostly scots

And there are also a LOT of people, mainly younger, who are very vocal about hating the Tories but for whatever reason will not actually vote.

I raised my girl to be politically engaged, this is the first time major elections in certain countries are happening in the same year since SM became so prevalent so certain analysts are saying this may have a major effect on the number of younger people voting AND how they vote too.

The way the gender thing is being used really pisses me off. Of course in a perfect world, Labour would sort their thinking out on that, but how on earth can that one issue be bigger than all the harm that's been done to e.g. millions of children in poverty?

Agreed

Plus this perception that tories are better on this? Nonsense! They're just quieter/more subtle about it!

@Bollindger labour have already said they have no magic wand and have to fix the economy before spending - that’s why they have resisted calls to end the two child cap on benefits and other measures - I’m sure they will do this when it’s financially viable - they aren’t making any wild promises

In 2015, David Cameron won because he said he would have let the UK vote on Brexit.
When the fact the Tory party got the majority became clear and the was one hell of a lot of swearing, as they expected another hung parliament and had all been laughing about blaming the Liberals for the fact Brexit was never happening.
IT WAS 100% CLEAR THEN WE WOULD LEAVE.
I have said this for 10 years. Check my posts.

1. Windrush - still not seeing how this is a reflection of policy given it was rectified and turned around, rather than further embedded. We'll have to agree to disagree.
2. " In the same period of time the government have increased thresholds on incomes before allowing spouses to join a worker, and many more incremental changes that make it harder for migrants to settle and live here." - Yes, that's how immigration works - it's not a free for all. And all first generation immigrants understand this and work within the rules. It's still a LOT easier rules than any other country has so my point remains.
3. You've completely misunderstood my point on how a Bulgarian citizen could move to the UK and bring family across whenever they wanted, and non EU citizens couldn't because of FoM rules that allowed anyone with an EU passport to move across irrespective of labour or not. Post Brexit, the Bulgarian goes through the same hoops as the non EU candidate and also cannot bring family over. I think that's very fair and a good thing to come out of this Govt.
4. "Actually many trade agreements make immigration of citizens between nations easier, again" - Nope. Maybe temporary work visas. Hopefully you understand immigration means permanent residence or citizenship. The journey to turn those temporary work visas to permanent is what the UK makes easy.
5. You're asking an immigrant to give you empirical evidence of how well integration has worked in the UK - because my lived experience in immigrant communities isn't enough? Wow, i guess just another hoop I need to jump to get heard by some internet whackjob. I'm sure you have facts and figures too hey. Because that would be very prejudiced to expect a higher standard to back up my opinions than you have for yourself.

You've been rude and insulting from the get. Frankly only someone having a bad day would be on Mumsnet scrolling through comments by strangers spoiling for a fight. No one else on this thread has been as rude as you. Foolish of me to engage. Hope life gets better for you.

Edited to Add - Nope, I'm not very good arguing with strangers online. I'd be worried for my mental health if i was.

And sod it. Unpopular as this view will no doubt be and probably get jumped on. Actually I do think, with this particular GE and the predicted large Labour win, that there is a justification for voting Tory in some constituencies. Particularly if it's a good local constituency MP. Too many people imo forget the importance of having a good constituency MP.

In others, Lib Dem would be a choice worth opting for.

I'd say the same sentiment but opposite party if there was a predicted large Conservative win, that was going to replace an outgoing unpopular Labour government. In that scenario, there'd be justification to vote Labour in some constituencies.

Labour are heading for a large win. So yes there does need to be some Tory MPs in parliament to balance it out. Unless people would rather Reform represent the Conservative or right leaning vote. Obviously going off polls, some, maybe many, would.

It's essential to have a healthy opposition and balanced parliament.

Personally I'd like to see more Independents in parliament but it's harder for them to win, which is a shame.

@Nanaboots Covid has cost us dearly! Who has the biggest debt now? The Conservatives.

However no Government can put this right. The right of the Conservatives are pretty similar to Farage. We are actually more successful with centre dominated politics. Left centre or right centre. We fail miserably when we lurch too far one way or the other.

Our political system works best with a strong opposition. A divided one letting in extremes is really poor. It means there’s no obvious coordinated alternative. Lots of despots have started like this. Little opposition. Then it’s too late to stop any excesses which eventually threaten democracy.

The voters who vote Reform are, yet again, not able to understand that rhetoric isn’t a workable policy. They haven’t learnt from Brexit and a repackaged Farage is just a mouthpiece for the “we’ve been shafted and cannot say what we really think” brigade. Lots of what they think is probably illegal of course. I think we need to have a much greater understanding of the political facts of life.

My concern is the number of posters, not all on this thread, who are saying they would vote Labour just to get the Tories out.

Voting for any party is showing your support for many, if not all, of their policies. Even though I accept that we need change, I cannot vote for a party when I don’t agree with some of their policies.

Labour recently have said they won’t increase taxes for the working person. However, Keir Starmers definition of a working person is someone who works, relies on the state and has no savings so can’t “write a cheque” when they need to. Well, that means he doesn’t view my DC, a newly qualified teacher with savings for a house deposit, as a working person. It has made me now wonder what they have planned for the non-working people like my DC. Surely we should be encouraging people to work, save and not be reliant on the state rather than saying they aren’t really a normal working person.

As long as voters know what they are showing their support for, rather than a “let’s get the Tories out” vote, then that’s fine. I’m still an undecided as we have a few independents running around here and they may end up with my vote. None of the major parties appeal at the moment and I see that as the best way to signify that I don’t support the various manifestos. We will still have a Labour government but if people voted based on what they agree with, rather than don’t want, it may show to Labour that they don’t have as large a support as they think and there is still room for them to improve.

It's essential to have a healthy opposition and balanced parliament.

What makes you think that the Tory party, in the state that they will be in post July 12th will be in a position to provide ‘healthy’ opposition? They’re going to collapse in on themselves with infighting, an immediate leadership contest and the likes of Suella wittering on about letting Farage take over.

They’ve pissed away the last 3 years on leadership battles, scandals and a total lack of action. They can’t organise a healthy anything.

Totally disagree. The problem with large majorities flipping back and forth between the Tories and Labour is everything becomes short termist. If you were setting up a new democracy now no one would choose FPTP as a voting method - it’s crap. There are plenty of ways of introducing PR that provide all the checks and balances required to curtail the loons on both ends of the political spectrum while enabling a more centrist, long termist view of the policies we need.

As a disabled benefits recipient I've spent too long worried sick about money and struggling, I'm drowning in debt just to afford to live

I'm so sorry. Disabled people have been treated terribly for too long . And I think it's worrying that there's very little mention of disabled people and of benefits policy in Labour's manifesto.

Ironically if in opposition, especially if a large Labour win, the remaining Tory MPs may (I emphasise 'may') be the best defenders of the disabled. Whether motivated by conscience or simply as an opportunity to oppose the incumbent government. Especially if most of the rest of the opposition is Lib Dem.

Worth noting that the last Labour government were no friends of the disabled. Obviously that was then and hopefully the current Labour party have better morals (and economic sense, because a supportive benefits system actually saves money, as poverty and health are interlinked and punitive benefits systems cost more. People are left in more need of state help and in more need of other public services like the NHS and social care)

http://www.labournet.net/other/0409/disability1.html

I had forgotten the courts.
Now it has been normalised, wait till Labour get this done to them.
Plus ousting a PM has become a thing to do. Watch your back Sir.

Labour under KS may not have the charisma some of you want. This is not 1997.

The Tory government who lost power, then where sweet little old ladies compared to this lot. I remember it well.

Cash for questions, David Mellor, the woman and the Chelsea shirt, Christine and Neil Hamilton swinging, also unknown at the time John Major affair with Edwina Curry pales into insignificance when you look at this lot.

I want politics back that is boring and sensible. It's not something we have had in the past 8 years.

Keir Starmer will bring back normality to politics we have long forgotten.

No, it isn't going to look pretty. 14/8 years of Cons destroying this country won't be fixed overnight. It will take at least 2 labour terms and more

Keir is not a career politician. He came into politics at the age of 50
He is a decent family man who does not have the wealth this ilk have had.

No, he isn't broke. However, his wealth is mainly tied up in his property and a field he owns he bought his parents for their donkey sanctuary in the 90s.

I can't wait for July 5th to see the Tories in name only gone, and we can rebuild our country from the foundations upwards

I will be up on an all-night cheering every Tory seat that falls. I perhaps best warn the neighbours 😏😉😏