Schools should close early on a Friday

[Goolagoo]

I know this will be very mixed opinion - especially for working parents .

But , I’m a teacher . Over the years I have seen so much in schools regarding PPA time and really unfair practices . I have seen , and experienced , teachers having PPA taken away due to staffing issues . I once saw a teacher have a day of PPA ( a whole day because she wasn’t having it the week after due to staffing issues so would need to plan 2 weeks work in this PPA session ) taken away - it was a Friday too so she was supposed to be having that day to plan for lessons beginning on the Monday . It was taken away due to staffing issues and she was in tears - she had plans that weekend that she had to cancel so she could plan for the week ahead ( I didn’t work in that school , she’s a teacher friend ). I have also had PPA time taken away from me before and I also have never had a class that didn’t get upset at me not being in class and having a supply or a Ta cover . Usuall work that’s done during the cover whilst class teacher is out on PPA isn’t ‘important’ work - it’s a lot of filler work , or work that doesn’t go in books . A lot of children also get anxiety over their class teacher being out and children with SEN especially suffer with this .

I read about a school that decided to close at 1pm every Friday to allow teachers to all have their PPA time . They said that they made the time back with a slightly later finish time / slightly earlier start time and they found that behaviour improved massively. Fridays are usually the end of a long week and filled with behaviour issues and this reduced along with attendance improving . I know some schools around the area do Finish at 1/2 on a Friday and I wonder if this is the reason why .

It seems like it would really make sense !

Maybe even , as TAs don’t get PPA time as they don’t plan , they could offer a kind of after school club ( until normal pick up time ) where the TAs watched the children who’s parents couldn’t do an earlier pick up time .

Yes! Most people do regularly work extra hours evenings and weekends. This whole “but we have to work longer than 9-3” drives me nuts. I can’t think of anyone that works that doesn’t go well beyond their contracted hours, which in my case are 9-6.

I do, however, think teachers should be paid more.

As a teacher I would love this idea. Perhaps a 1.30pm finish after lunch.

But then, my TAs work extremely hard and are paid extremely poorly, so I wouldn’t want them put upon.

I think it’s just one of those nice ideas, a lovely day dream, but probably not practical.

Edited to add, as far as PPA is concerned, if I am asked to help out, I’ll usually say yes, unless I’m very busy. However, I have no problem saying ‘unfortunately I’m not available and I require my PPA today’. Schools cannot force you to give up that time and if they are, speak to your union rep.

This might be a really stupid question, but why don't teachers just all work to their contract? Presumably it states your hours of work? So if your contracted 8-5 or 45hrs a week or whatever, once you hit that you stop, if you don't have time for planning because you had to cover a class, then it doesn't get done and you teach what you like.

I can't think of any other job where every member of staff seems to be expected to work evenings a weekends without pay. So what happens if you all stop? They can't sack you all since there's such a teacher shortage.

Maybe I'm being too simplistic? But surely it would help put a stop to half the crap expected by the government/offstead?

In most professions you don't just work your contracted hours though?

I always assumed that was the difference between a "career" and a "job". I dont know anyone in my (big) family who just works their set hours and only one (my sister) is a teacher

No teacher should be taking abuse.
The government needs to find a way of dealing with children who aren't engaged in school that doesn't involve teachers being abused and doesn't ruin educational chances for other children

No one has suggested paying teachers or any of the other professions you mention NMW.

I don’t think you can compare being a teacher to being a doctor, hopefully I don’t need to explain why.

Nursing, policing and social work are equivalent professions and they are all more stressful and demanding than teaching and significantly lower paid.

But why though? When did this culture of working for free become normal? My time is valuable, if you want me to use it making you money you can sure as shit pay me for it. Nor will I do overtime because I'm told too. You can offer it, I may or may not take it.

At the end of the day if there is routinely too much work to be done in contracted hours you need to either up the hours offered or employ another person for the overspill!

When your hours are up you should be out the door, unless it's your business then it's up to you.

I get that some careers such as nursing can't always just walk out at 5pm. But I strongly believe they should be paid enough to cover the fact that sometimes they have to stay until an emergency is over. (and I mean actual emergency, not we don't have enough staff because pay and conditions are shit)

Well said 👍

He could easily qualify as a trainer and as a swimming teacher. If you think lifeguarding is just sitting watching people you are very ignorant. You are ensuring safety rules are followed including with slides and equipment, numbers in pool, first aid. Yes just sitting looking. He hasn't taken 30 years to earn more money, he has been in his role for years.

I'm hardly suggesting every teacher should become a lifeguard, I'm pointing out that for a career that involves 4 years at uni with fees of over £36k plus living costs and then the education of our children it isn't particularly well paid.

You are confused. It is my GS who is the lifeguard not @Slofter's. Obviously you don't want to continue as you are wrong. He hasn't got a temp job, he has a permanent contract and yes he has benefits like sick pay/holiday pay. He isn't paid less because he intends to move on in September, they want him to stay. Yes you are confused.

Are they lower paid? And can you quote evidence they are more stressful? Because a quick google might prove you wrong on both accounts .

I also think nurses, police, social workers should be paid more, because I don’t see it as a race to the bottom. I think we all work hard and all coping with situations they are unsustainable due to poor funding .

Some people are just making things up, waste of time engaging with them. I'm sure most of them wouldn't last 5 minutes in a classroom.

And neither would we want to, which is why we didn’t choose to be teachers. Different strokes.

I think it's quite normal. If you're a trainee accountant you easily work 6 days a week 9am - 10pm for most of the year, especially when you add in exam revision required. It's quite comparable to teacher pay too - £28k starting salary in London, probably less outside of London.

It's normal to work beyond your contracted hours if you're a salaried professional.

He has a permanent contract for a job over the summer holidays before he goes to university? And then intends to return to at Christmas and then at Easter? How does that work?

This could be that any directed time is done at home . I know some schools allow PPA from home and I have been in schools on supply that close by 430 ( due to caretakers hours ) . I can assure you though that this just means the work is being taken home , because the building is closed . It’s not possible to get everything done within teaching hours. I have just left and have work to take home with me to do over the weekend .

That’s trainee though, what is it after 20 years?

I feel like I'm just observing a ridiculous conversation as a bystander here. You asked me to 'please stop' and said 'Oh my god really? We’re getting ourselves tied up in knots about life guarding..' thinking I was the other poster, but it's very clearly you keeping the conversation going. I really don't understand why you're giving her such a hard time and I really don't understand why you still seem to think lifeguarding is seasonal or in low demand. I go to my leisure centre at all hours several times a week and very often see the same staff - I have no doubt if they're willing to fill staffing gaps, they'll be given the hours.

That’s how it should be . If you don’t have the time to plan in the hours you are paid for you don’t do it and if enough did stand up and do this then those in power would be forced to do something - but , sadly due to the management in some schools teachers do not feel able to stand up and say that . I think people certainly don’t realise how toxic and fear based some schools are.

Because there's a line in the teachers contract that says something like "... and whatever additional hours required to complete your work".

No way would I sign something so vauge. What's stopping them doubling your work load? Tripling it?

If all teachers refused theyd have to take it out

If you don't have time for planning properly and you just 'wing it' that has major implications on the children. If you have kids with specific needs in your class and they don't have differentiated work or suitable materials available to support them this often impacts on behaviour which makes the lesson much more difficult to deliver.
Also, a lot of the paperwork and admin that needs done might be social work referrals, evidence for SEN identifications, contacting parents, etc and these can't be ignored.
There are some things I will specifically ask "how does this benefit the children?" and say I will only do it if I have the time, if there is no immediate need. However, I am an experienced teacher who has worked in the same school for a long time and has a fairly good working relationship with the headteacher. Many younger teachers do not have the confidence or the job security to stand up for themselves and are often manipulated/bullied into doing far more than they should.

All professionals will have similar in their contracts

I do agree it is . A lot of the work done by teachers within schools , however is going beyond already . Then they go beyond even more .

As an example - I have worked from 730 - 530 every day . That’s 10 hour days . That’s already going over . In that time I am marking ( very heavy marking policy ) and just chipping away at assesments . It’s like this every day . I have assessments due for end of year , ITP’s, recording of data and generating that data for pupil progress , as well as individual subject assessments . On top of this - admittedly this isn’t something that is always done , just end of year - I have reports . I have half a day coming up ( 3 hours ) of time to do this . There is no way I’m going to be able to do it all in 3 hours and there is no time after school as I’ve just explained that I am finishing at 530 every day as it is . That means that I will be working either very late nights or over the weekends to get it done . I don’t think the expectation to work outside of hours in a career should actually mean this level of working outside of hours . Over the next month I guarantee I will be working about 20 hours on top of all the hours I already work over .

What’s actually important about this is - I don’t plan . Can you imagine the extra hours if I did ? PPA is around 2-3 hours per week .. some teachers are able to get it done in that time , of course and I imagine more experienced teachers are more able to adapt previous years planning or have done lessons before and can whip it up a bit quicker but it all depends .

The thing is all that can be ignored, you prioritise the bits that need doing now (safeguarding) the rest if you don't have time you don't do it. The lessons go to shit, the parents complain, the SLT try and force you to do more, you say no, the unions get involved. Eventually the government has to do something.

Short term pain? Yup, but if it means teachers not working themselves to death then I'm all for it.

This weird culture of you have to do all this extra work for free (especially as a trainee) is bullshit. If everyone said no then change will happen