To wonder if addiction is a choice

[BarbaraAnnee]

I am sorry if this sounds insensitive to some people but I just wondered what people thought of this. A relative of mine is an alcoholic and due to her being unfit, her parents have had to permanently look after her DD. I feel so bad for her and just wondered if she really loved her DD she would just stop drinking?

😂 love that you're trying to ignore medical information. I should have summarised "dopamine is required by humans. Science shows that alcohol takes over the control of dopamine and, at the same time, affects the memory system associated. This means that once a person starts to become addicted (which by the way is very different amounts in different people, if you'd cope with it I can find medical evidence to show that some people get addicted purely but drinking a glass of wine a night) and so a person may have no control over whether they drink". Easier to understand?
Now I know you're going to take umbrage with my choice of words "no control" but that is what it boils down to medically, and that is what those medical links say.

And apologies if medical links are long-winded. You're saying something which you believe to be true, I'm showing you facts. Not my fault that those facts are scientific and so need explanation in "long-winded" terms 🤷‍♀️

I see this thread has gone from “They’re not addicted, they just choose to drink/use drugs” to being shown scientific evidence of addiction, and now “Well it’s their own fault for choosing to have that first ever drink/drug. If they’d remained abstinent they wouldn’t ever have become addicted”. Even when the addiction has been to prescribed medication. “Well I was prescribed that drug and I didn’t become addicted so there’s no reason anyone would!” It’s ludicrous.

'Now I know you're going to take umbrage with my choice of words "no control" but that is what it boils down to medically,'

I'm not taking 'umbrage' I just disagaree. For every medical link you can post enabling and medicalising those with drug or drink compulsions you'll find a plethora of other medical links like the neuroscience upthread saying yeah they have no self control but medicalise it and blame their brains that are different to everyone else's apparently.

I'd try and keep it simpler if I were you for those who think they can't help it because they are different. They aren't.

It is ludicrous you're right. I pity anyone with compulsions that ruin their lives and everyone else's around them but until they say yep I need to stop and I need help there's not much to be done. Certainly not trips to A&E.

But there are differences, that's why I'm looking to science links. The science shows that for some people addiction isn't a choice. I fought for years against it, was doing everything suggested to me but kept slipping. That slipping isn't a choice. I know you dislike the medicalising but I'm only trying to show that not all alcoholics are continuing because they "love alcohol" over their families, that lots do try with their whole soul but still fail and destroy their families and gives their actual lives to this disease. Alcoholics aren't all selfish people choosing to make everyone miserable.

I cant imagine a HCP advising you to carry on drinking.

Well you’re very ignorant and know nothing about addiction treatment regimes. Addicts are told to continue drinking/using (depending on the drug) because there is such a high risk of death if they were to stop suddenly without detox.

They have to continue drinking (though usually they’ll be told to cut down) until they can get onto a detox/into rehab where they can safely withdraw. My db was told to cut down to 40 units a DAY. That’s the equivalent of a litre of vodka every day. And that was a lot less than he’d previously been drinking.

Comments like yours just prove that the average person has no idea about how difficult it is for addicts to stop.

How much drink is required daily to create this withdrawal?

If I drank a bottle of wine per day (loads of people do) would they be at risk of dying if they stopped?

It would depend. A size 4, 6 stone woman would need a lot less than a 16 stone man. Some people process alcohol more effectively than others.

But the crux is that we’re talking about people with a PHYSICAL addiction. Plenty of people are unhealthily dependent on drink and might drink a bottle of wine a night, but won’t have reached the point where they’d have a seizure if they stopped. There’s a difference between a dependency and an addiction.

I would imagine that your condescending view that someone should just stop drinking pertains to those with a dependency who are using alcohol as a crutch but aren’t physically addicted, because you don’t know any actual addicts.

My DM would have DTs as soon as she woke up in the morning. She’d be shaking violently and absolutely pouring with sweat. If she didn’t have a drink she’d start fitting a few hours later.

I do feel sorry for people that become addicted to alcohol, so very difficult to kick.

I get incredibly angry with idiot thst talk about taking drugs as an expected and normal thing to do. I have seen examples of this on this site (by mums!).

That is why young people are taking drugs. It’s on every tv program! If only they knew the caos they are causing in other poorer countries that have to deal with drug trafficking thugs.

I hate people who take drugs. They are illegal! I have more sympathy for alcoholics who are at least not breaking the law and fall into addiction because of life circumstances, poor parenting, society’s expectations that getting drunk is fine and fun.

I have no sympathy for alcoholics. I think back to the wine o’clock fad that I didn’t agree with. I wonder how many mothers have an alcohol problem now and will perhaps think back to their rubbishing of those of us who don’t drink. I had pressure from others to drink but I always refused. I got called boring etc and was left out of the group all because of not drinking wine etc. Alcohol is toxic but seen as fun. I’m not friends with those drinkers anymore.

Yes I agree, I hate people who knowingly take illegal drugs as they know the dangers. Alcohol/OTC/prescription drugs is a lot more understandable for me.

Addiction is not a choice. Being addicted is not a choice.

Choosing to use though is a choice, although choosing to not use is complex and requires sometimes significant support. It's a weighted choice but it is a choice and you can choose to not use and to recover.

I am in recovery for addiction. The idea we have no choice makes me roll my eyes so far into my head. No. I choose everyday to not use for my children. Yes we have a choice and yes that parent is choosing alcohol over their child.

No if you look at the biological pathways responding during addiction it's a lot more complicated. It gets to a point where it is all consuming biologically. I did smoke once and made a choice to stop and it was bloody hard to give up, but I wasn't as far gone in an addiction as your family member, and also smoking isn't as damaging in some ways as alcohol can be. I guess in the earlier phases there are choices but gone too far, it can be impossible to reverse.

Imagine you need to go toilet. Can you not use willpower to stop? No, exactly. Biologically it's not a direct comparison but the gist of it is the same - when an addiction has gotten really extreme, your body, every part of it, stops and says hey, please just prioritise this immediate need! And it won't stop asking.

It's tragic but sounds like the person you know has gone too far down the road.

I think it can very quickly become a problem before you know its a problem.
Drinking in the evening after kids go to bed becomes drinking in afternoon, becomes taking alcohol to work.
You can function on cocaineor alcohol for a long while before it really impacts on you. When it starts to impact, the ramifications are huge. Job loss, financial problems, loss of relationship.
Going back to my earlier point. The behaviour is a choice. Going to buy the alcohol/drugs knowing the outcome is a choice which is why its so frustrating to those around the addict.

The lack of sympathy cones from those who pour their love and support into addicts while getting nthing back.
Those that do seek support and get help deserve happiness and support.

What about the people who become addicted to prescription/OTC drugs. They go to the GP pharmacy for a genuine concern and trust that that medication will help them.

Yes, i absolutely agree. Those people have been really let down by the healthcare system. Things like roxycoton (sp?) Have now been removed from being prescribed, but not before huge harm was done.

but i do think thats very differnt to someone going out and getting cocaine, a known addictive substance with the sole purpose of getting high.

Yes, me too.

It's pretty much the first thing every HCP advises.

I think @Anonym00se answered your comment well. Many people have explained about withdrawal in this thread, all health care professionals should know this and therefore cannot advise anything other than to continue drinking alcohol. This is partly the problem, the lack of detox units/availability. When you're told you have to slowly cut down by yourself it's so hard, because you have to cut down SOOO slowly, (you're literally some days drinking, for example, half a glass less of wine), that by the time you're at the point where you should stop for the day you're so far into the alcohol/drunk/high that the ability to stop is very challenging. I'm not making excuses, I'm just trying to explain how the actuality of cutting down is. It's both a physical and mental struggle.

'This is partly the problem, the lack of detox units/availability'

Yes it would be ideal if there were various units available locally for every one of our individual health needs, sadly the nhs is not a bottomless pit and cannot just provide everything for everyone. I wonder what the relapse rate is post detox, is it possibly seen as a futile service anyway?

Life is hard and challenging for so many people and those who have endured severe illness really do struggle to understand those who do all that shit to themselves. I know of an alcoholic and she is the most vile, abusive, self pitying person I have ever come across. Not saying all are like that but anecdotally it does seem a theme personality wise.

Don't charities offer support?

In my experience the most effective way of getting and staying clean/sober is doing fellowship meetings AA,CA or NA. They don't put pressure on the NHS and you can detox whilst attending them with doctors/CPN support. I know addiction is really frustrating I really get it. You don't have to understand it though.

In my experience the most effective way of getting and staying clean/sober is doing fellowship meetings AA,CA or NA.

I agree with this.