If you consider yourself to be left wing

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Do you believe there should be limits on migration (as a net figure) and benefits (as total % of GDP/cap per household), or do you think there should be no limits at all?

I’m a centrist, but whenever these topics are discussed I notice people claiming to be left wing become a bit uncomfortable, and usually make aspersions on the person talking about it before trying to move the conversation on. It’s like they know deep down we can’t just allow them to spiral but equally they’re at loathe to actually say it out loud because of how it looks.

I don’t think it makes economic sense to fill low skilled work with migrants because they also need benefits so they cost more overall than just paying those already here a big uplift to do those jobs? I understand the concept of getting skilled migrants in like doctors as they take years and years to educate but not care workers and agriculture etc. Why can’t a Government just make a declaration of shortages and top up temporarily? Or complete tax exemptions for those people?
We are at the point now with an ageing population where those in power need to start thinking outside the box.

Migrants don't have any recourse to public funds therefore can't claim benefits.

When they could, as EU citizens, they were under represented as a % of the working population.

"We are at the point now with an ageing population where those in power need to start thinking outside the box."

How about taxing private education?😜

I never really understand why people who have fled from their own country and have got to safety in France, Germany or any other western European country are so desperate to get to the UK that they would risk their lives (and give all their money to some criminal) and get on an unsafe small boat to cross the channel. What's wrong with Europe? I know some have may family here or speak English, but if I were in that position rather than risk my life I would stay in France, it's a perfectly nice place isn't it?

Its English. Speaking English, people think they have a better chance of getting on here because of it. There's also connections to the country from colonial days.

Oh and our system makes it much easier for people to find cash in hand work whilst they get started.

The benefits and access to public services in other countries are better.

What's wrong with reggae?

Driving landlords out of business wouldn't make housing scarcer unless they burn down their properties behind them, would it? If they were driven out of business then their properties would go on the market, and if it was a forced sale due to the business collapsing, probably at a competitive price, enabling first time buyers to afford them. The number of houses stays the same regardless, but more people would be living in them paying their own mortgage rather than someone else's.

The issue with agriculture is that as an industry it needs a lot of workers at one time of year (harvest over the summer/autumn) but not the rest of the year.

Although in theory that's not skilled work in practice it's long hours and very physical.

In the past the U.K. had an agricultural workers exemption scheme so people came over mostly from Eastern Europe for the summer/autumn only. They mostly sleep in dorms in the farm itself (so no families or dependents and not taking up conventional "housing")

If you want people already in the country to do the work then you run into problems - no public transport out to the farms, so people can't get there. People who already have a family and kids don't want to move into dorms for a season (or can't if they have caring responsibilities - kids or elderly parents). You need young able bodied people and in the UK those people get permanent jobs rather than a harvesting job that is guaranteed to be temporary.

“Migrants don't have any recourse to public funds therefore can't claim benefits.”

So where do migrants live? Where do they walk etc? I did not mean “benefits”
in a narrow sense. They all need health care, some need education, all walk on streets, some drive, all need housing etc.

I am anti Brexit but I do want to listen why it got through. Poor people in this country are angry because where they live things are bad in health, education, the list goes on and on.
Where I live in London things are generally fine and dandy, that doesn’t mean I can’t have empathy or listen!
The only issue we have where I live is potholes, literally. State education is good, NHS has recovered pretty much, transport has always been good if you don’t need the trains etc etc

No I do t think there is a need for a cap at the moment . I don't believe immigration is the cause of the breakdown in public services or the housing shortage. I believe immigration is blamed. I think there are a lot more efficient ways to process immigrants . For one I am facing redundancy because of a decline in international students being able to come for post graduate study: these students are an asset to the country. They pay huge fees and their families usually work and support themselves and add value. For one I won't have a job soon because of this new gov policy.

That makes sense – I’ve wondered this as the standard of living and access to opportunities is certainly higher in other European countries en route.

I’ve always thought that letting everyone one in was a centre right neo liberal thing!

I’ve heard NHS services in London are among some of the worst!

The issue with agriculture is that as an industry it needs a lot of workers at one time of year (harvest over the summer/autumn) but not the rest of the year.

Although in theory that's not skilled work in practice it's long hours and very physical.

Students? School leavers? There are loads of them who might appreciate a great hourly wage? Proper drive to get them recruited? Happens in other countries? Is literally why the whole Western world had really long summer holidays in the first place.

@PrimaDoner - not for us - GP is great now we switched practise and so is the dentist/orthodontist, but then we are not chronically ill. Even the local pharmacist is brilliant. The dire time was straight after Covid.

Yeah but, no but, yeah but…..

said every leftie

migration of workers for specific roles and asylum seekers are two entirely seperate issues and should not be conflated.

the former should be controlled according to need and work permits/visas granted according to demand. although I am definitely for free movement of labour across the EU that we had.

the latter is not an issue that we can solve on a country by country basis. instead of focusing on numbers, we need to took at the problem as a whole. we need to start off by targeting people trafficking gangs and they can be dismantled with sufficient will. there should be conflict prevention worldwide and it would help if we stopped starting wars for no good reason. the unhcr is severely underfunded and helping and supporting refugees to return home or resettle world wide through a central system will be more effective and cost efficient. this already exists, but on a much smaller scale. finally poverty needs to be addressed worldwide and certainly we can do much more about that as a nation. ultimately people who are desperate will find a way to come. just stopping them is not a solution. the real root problems have to be addressed.

I'm left wing, I don't think an actual figure is useful.

We do need some immigration to cover those jobs that people here don't want to do.

We also don't know what's going to happen in the world in the next couple of years!
What if Russia does take over Ukraine would we just say no one can come here? Tough!

I want proper legal routes for people to apply for, I want those people already here processed quickly & humanely & those that don't meet the criteria as an Asylum seeker sent back to where they came from again quickly & humanely!

What I don't want is applicants waiting months/ years, kids being trafficked off our streets, anyone being rounded up & shoved in the back of van & sent to an unsafe Country!

Non EEA migrants are net takers from the system. That is a fact.

Since Brexit, the vast majority of migrants are from non EU countries and therefore taking far more the system than they are paying in.

This myth that, immigration is good for then economy, is not true.

Immigration is making this country poorer. That is just a fact. Nothing to do with racism. It’s simply proven by numbers.

So we truly were better off before Brexit even on immigration. Anyone listening to Farage and Tice et al on this topic is listening to someone who got it wrong last time and is getting it wrong now.

Your first point: I used the NHS as an example. So we should feel happy to strip developing countries of their workers, because we do it for lots of other things anyway?

Your second point is a bad faith argument.

Can you, or anyone else, give me a good reason why we shouldn't be concerned about this?

That’s good! On another thread recently people spoke of dreadful waiting lists and disinterested GPs waiving away undiagnosed cancers, etc. Turned out a lot of the worst experiences were those of people based in London. Although that was another politically driven thread about privatising the NHS ;) So who knows how representative that anecdata was.

I do think GP practice can make such a massive difference and as a result people living on the same street can have wildly different experiences.

But anyway, I’m going off topic here!

‘strip’ is an interesting choice of word.

Don’t the workers themselves have any agency?

I'm left wing and FOM in the EU was one of the most stupid policies they ever came up with. Most genuine left wingers aren't in favour of significant inward migration, those who are tend to be more liberal not left wing.

The country has been spectacularly mismanaged and we use immigration in lieu of growth but, if you strip out the banker money (and that is the original EU members, in the main) most of our inward migration since the A8 countries gained access has been low skilled and low waged. There is a reason politicians and think tanks talk about 'on average, migration has been a net benefit' and that is because when you start drilling down and take the original member states out of the equation, that 'net benefit' looks very different. People parrot this immigrants are net contributors all the time without even thinking about it. If you have a low skilled, low waged Brit not adding to the pot by dint of not earning enough, how the hell can an immigrant be a net contributor if they're doing the same job and earning the same pay? It's nuts.

So, to answer your question, I'd like to see immigration come right down. I don't want the country paved over just to house more incomers. I want to keep as much wildlife as possible and we're already the most nature depleted country on earth. The South East, if it were a country, would be the most densely populated country in Europe. No more, no thanks.

I actually worry about our future without immigration. We have a rapidly aging population. The baby boomers are reaching old age and will need a lot of care. Who is going to fill those caring rolls and who is going to pay the taxes to fund these. We need a proper system where immigrants are vetted and processed into employment.

He is that left wing? Sounds more right wing 🤔