If you consider yourself to be left wing

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Do you believe there should be limits on migration (as a net figure) and benefits (as total % of GDP/cap per household), or do you think there should be no limits at all?

I’m a centrist, but whenever these topics are discussed I notice people claiming to be left wing become a bit uncomfortable, and usually make aspersions on the person talking about it before trying to move the conversation on. It’s like they know deep down we can’t just allow them to spiral but equally they’re at loathe to actually say it out loud because of how it looks.

I’m really impressed (in a non patronising way) that you have the level of self awareness that you do, but it is those luxury beliefs that lead you to believe extra benefits would ‘lift people out of poverty’

I hate to be a Daily Mail type but in many cases (please trust me! I see these cases every day in my job), the money would not be spent on sensible purchases. There are swathes of people out there who have basically no consequential thinking - any money they get is spent almost instantly, on takeaways, alcohol, nails, vapes. I’m not even blaming them directly, I truly believe a lot of people aren’t actually capable of managing money and we set them up to fail by simply handing cash over.

I find it very frustrating that we are expected to be one side or another. If you’re anti immigration you’re racist, if you’re pro immigration you’re nuts/ stupid.

I am somewhat in between. What really gets me is that fact that people on the left seem much more determined to help a load of young men who’ve already made it to France than women and children in war zones who have no option of travelling to Europe themselves. They are who really need our help. I also have a single female friend currently living in her car yet the local 4 hotel is housing all of these refugee men. Why is no one paying for her to stay in a 4 hotel, she’s much more vulnerable?

I don’t quite understand why you’re arguing against something that doesn’t exist, and that no party is arguing for.

Of course there should be limits on numbers, but that doesn’t mean throwing out an arbitrary figure and then saying “Sorry Dr Heart Surgeon, you can’t come in now because we’ve reached our limit”. It’s about vetting applicants to make sure they have the skills that we need here. In reality that’s never going to lead to a stampede to the UK.

All this “My mate saw them getting off the boat and going straight to the jobcentre” is bollocks. They’d have to have been given the right to reside here to claim benefits. People genuinely believe this crap!

Other European countries offer much better benefits than we do. What makes the UK so wonderful that people arrogantly believe half the world wants to live here?

Regarding benefits, I don’t think there should be a cap as different families will have different needs. But I think that by concentrating on the housing crisis, and affordable childcare, that the benefits bill would lower significantly. Most of the people claiming huge amounts are handing it straight over to landlords and nurseries, they’re not using it for exotic holidays.

To continue:

As a left wing person.

I think that there is massive pressure in public services and housing in this country.

Many immigrants now pay the NHS surcharge so they are contributing towards healthcare.

However in general I think the pressure is because the public services have been cut and run down and as a result the service is not as good. I have worked in teaching for twenty years and that is my experience.

Austerity was also deliberate policy.

It's not the case the services have stayed the same and the number of people has gone up; services have been cut hard and the number of people has gone up.

This is such a muddled comment 😄

OMG you heard REGGAE MUSIC ??

Think of the children !!

I’m an Englishman on Main Streeet

Ohhh oh

😂😂

Gin Alley!?
T’were ever thus
Our standard of living is better than most of the world through most of time.
Just fo done basic research.

Poland is part of the EU.

They have free movement for EU citizens for three/six months and unlimited time in the country for EU citizens if you either have a job, are married to a polish citizen, are studying, or have private insurance and won't use the state benefits system,

So.., similar to the no recourse to public funds in the U.K.

It also is getting increased immigration from other countries.

notesfrompoland.com/2024/01/27/number-of-foreign-workers-in-poland-rises-6-to-1-13-million/

People talk about those with no recourse to public funds, but my experience is that this doesn’t stop the help being provided.
I am aware of a family who sold their overseas property to fund a UK masters with no intention of ever leaving UK. The visa was granted with the ability for a spouse to get a working visa. They started a minimum wage job. A random but severe health problem arose - 7 weeks in ITU, 5 months residential rehab and carers for 14 hrs a day. A baby arrived. There was another 11 week ITU stay and older child also now in UK. Both grandmothers have also been given permission to stay “to help with childcare”. I don’t know their access to healthcare.
On the basis of a 1 yr student visa the UK taxpayer is supporting and housing a significantly disabled adult , 2 young children, 1 minimum wage adult and 2 pensioners. It’s unlikely they will be deported.
This is happening every day.

I would consider myself left-wing, or centre left.

I do think there should be some criteria for immigration as others wise a. It would be unmanageable, and b. You’d get people with violent criminal records etc.

I don’t think it should be a fixed number.

We do need a reasonable level of immigration though.

The most crucial thing at the moment is to start actually processing people’s applications, as a lot of the current problems stem from the long waits to be considered. The Tories have massively fucked that up. Also, we need safe and legal routes for people to apply before they arrive, like we did with Ukraine.

Nailed it.
I think of myself as left of centre. Always voted labour from the 1970s until 2019
I did some kind of questionnaire which delved deeply into views of every topic and I realised that I veer from very far left on many things - housing, nationalisation, to right on many economic issues.
Socially left and economically right.

Immigration is a tough one. I believe it works better with integration which was the norm 50 years ago but is not encouraged now. I feel uncomfortable about large areas of cities being culturally that of other countries.

I don't get the hysteria about it but that is coming from someone who lives in a very white rural area. I grew up in an area of mixed cultural backgrounds in the 60s. My peers were the children of Polish and Indian immigrants of the 40s and 50s.
I don't think we should have unlimited immigration but we need some. There are vital sectors that can't recruit and need foreign recruitment.
The bulk of immigrants aren't illegal or refugees but a lot are students and economically inactive dependents.

Is it right wing or racist to prefer to help women and children from the war zone of Ukraine than fit young men who have travelled to France?
Is it right wing or racist to prefer immigrants who are doctors or agricultural workers to the wider families of students?

I'm left wing. I do think there needs to be some cap on migration as there may not be space for everyone who wants to come here or infra structure to support them, so a come one, come all policy isn't viable. What the cap should be, I don't know.
As for benefits, I'm not disingenuous enough to pretend there are not households receiving more in benefits than they could earn if they have large families and an exemption from the cap. Nor am i going to pretend that there are not a minority of people who avoid work deliberately. However, toughening up on it will invariably lead to children experiencing poverty, and child poverty is not only unacceptable in the short term, but leads to the need for far more costly future interventions. So exacerbating it is false economy.
I think I'm prepared to accept there is no such thing as a society where everyone contributes usefully. There will always be vulnerable people, work resistant people and those who take advantage.
However, cracking down on them is usually more trouble and expense than it's worth and as I said, it invariably leads to children being disadvantaged, which has a knock on effect to the next generation.

Oh no!
Not the reggae! 😱

Just picking up in a previous point:

Someone (lost who, sorry)

said unlimited migration and a heath and education system that are free at the point of use are incompatible.

Australia and New Zealand have such a system. It was suspended during Covid but otherwise NZ citizens can go to Aus and vice versa and access the state provided health and education systems of the other country.
(Both countries have some private schools and some private healthcare similar to the British style schools and healthcare which obviously isn't included)

There are no limits on how many citizens can travel (although obviously NZ doesn't actually have very many people).

In general these kind of systems work if there's no particular pull one way or another - both NZ and Aus are pretty economically developed and there isn't a big flow one way or the other.

Yeah, stop the reggae at all costs. Down with that sort of thing!

I mean, the very idea.

I'm a die hard socialist. The dilemma is that we have a too high population of non workers. That isn't solvable. I would like a better asylum system and to take more, while keeping immigration numbers down. Let's give safety to those that can't have that in their country of birth.
I think that we are short of workers because we don't have a fit-for-purpose in work benefit system. We are at the predicted place when UC and the bedroom tax was at whit paper stage. I like JC's plan of cutting the gig economy and the child cap. I didn't agree with a lot of what he said. I'm constantly nosing at jobs, trying to get over 25 hours would be a struggle were I am. You won't get a top up if single and you can't live on those wages. Twelve hour shifts are workable when they are staggered. If care homes can't get staff, ask why. Putting people in poverty or even just affording the basics doesn't work in a society that relies on tourism and consumerism.

Re jobs we need work training courses for the over 45's. Both me and my DP were looking for the IT wanted. We can do it but need proof, nothing us available. I totally believe that we have enough workers, they just need what's wanted and to be given a chance.

Maybe the system should take account of countries that Britain colonised? Surely there should be an allowance for countries that were taken over and pillaged to create wealth in Britain?

I walked down the Main Street yesterday evening and there were cars parked up with Reggae music blasting out. I felt like a stranger in the town I grew up in.

Sounds amazing! Protect reggae at all costs "thoughtless metropolitan types"!

Reggae's been a huge part of our popular culture since Caribbean immigration over 70 years ago so how does that make you feel a stranger? You basically wanted to write 'non-white playing their music' but knew you wouldn't get away with it

No that just drives landlords out of business and makes housing scarcer. If people can't afford economic rent the council/government should have to make up the difference. A benefits cap rather depends on the benefits, I would probably agree with limiting total benefits to some level of national income. I don't think living on benefits should be a lifestyle choice, if you can support yourself you should. Nor should it be a lottery what you get depending on how well you know the system and understand what you are eligible for.

Well I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of the poster who said she was left wing but then said we should only let professionals in but I seem to have been misunderstood.
I am a Tory btw. I think most of us think that if you are an economic migrant then you should
a) work and don't claim benefits
b) pay your taxes
c) integrate into our society and don't try and recreate your own country that you couldn't wait to get away from, in this one.
d) don't break the law
then if we have the infrastructure to support you, you are welcome.
Refugees fleeing war should be given proper time limited support to be able to contribute to our society until they can return to their own country or fully integrate.
It's a very simplistic viewpoint and logically it should work. It will never happen though because there's always too many do-gooders of either (or any) political persuasion who want to pretend it's against human rights or more likely, they want to somehow make money from the situation.

When people say 'we need immigration for the NHS', do you never wonder about the ethics of stripping poorer countries of their healthcare workers?

To me, it looks like 'rich country can't be bothered to train its own people; plunders the rest of the world'.

We did that in the 40s/50s.

Every commonwealth citizen had the right to live in the UK.

We then took it away in harder and harder forms from 1961.

Like we do for lots of our other resources you mean?

Although the "keep the workers in their own country" is a bit of a trope, many who use it are in reality feigning concern in order to cover for their own beliefs.