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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think bullies and evil people never change even when they grow up?

143 replies

twoblackdogs · 10/06/2024 14:50

Just this really.

We had an unofficial class reunion quite recently. There were some really evil bullies in our class, and now they are decent citizens, family people and caring parents, but I looked at them and thought that they just couldn't switch to the good side so easily and fully. How can one be really evil in the school and then suddenly become so very nice and kind and respected, and even doesn't (really?) remember his/her own evil deeds towards others? Do they really forget what they have done to some of their classmates, or they just don't care and think of themselves as good and decent people? Even knowing what they did? Or do they just laugh it off and say "oh, such and such had it coming/was too sensitive for his/her own good"? And everybody just thinks a world of good about them?
I remember my own bully, now a very respected family man. He just sort of laughs everything off. I don't think he's really changed.
Is it possible at all? Can such people change?
I still think that the little shit that once tortured kittens still is the same shit even if all grown up, respected in his job and raising a family.

OP posts:
WhatNoRaisins · 12/06/2024 15:36

Agree with above I always wonder what would happen if this type of bully went on to have a child with these "prey" type characteristics. Horrible thought.

Amendment · 12/06/2024 16:18

CoffeeCantata · 12/06/2024 15:12

MaturingCheeseball

I think some people - even from childhood - sniff out the weak or vulnerable and enjoy pawing them around like a cat with a bird.

I agree. I'm afraid this won't make me popular, but I've thought about this subject a lot and I think it comes down to Darwin and biology, basically.

In the animal world, any creature seen as weak will be picked on or abandoned by the parents or group. This keeps the gene pool strong.

I do think that anyone seen as being slightly different, or weak in some way, will become the target for bullies. And by weak, I mean someone who might be more sensitive, empathetic and kind - all wonderful characteristics from a moral viewpoint, but not, I'm afraid, from a crude and ruthless Darwinian one.

I'm totally on the side of the bullied, not the bullies, in case anyone's in any doubt! I didn't suffer much as a youngster myself, but my daughter (lovely, kind, sweet-natured, sensitive, later diagnosed with ASD) certainly did because she was perceived as being different. It's heart-breaking that no amount of intervention, teaching in school, campaigns etc seem to have any effect. Some of us humans are not very nice really.

Except that there isn't some kind of universal rule for any of this it's context-specific. I was a clever, plain, very poor working-class girl in a rough school known for fighting, truancy, teenage drinking (this was largely pre-drugs) and pregnancies. I got picked on because my cleverness had no currency there, among the demoralised staff nor schoolmates nor at home, where reading was 'lazy' and my parents tried to pressure me into leaving school at 15. I was just 'weak' in the context in which I grew up, a natural loser, the one the pack kicked and left in the ditch.

But of course I discovered I had way more currency than anyone else there because of my abilities (starting off with winning a scholarship to Oxford and getting the hell out). I discovered that elsewhere in the world I was in fact well up at the front of the 'Darwinian pack'. In other contexts, I was clever, articulate, personable, popular without making much of an effort, academically successful, then successful in my career. If I'd been born into another type of setting that valued brains, I'd still have been plain, but my cleverness would have been recognised, rewarded, and at a minimum made me feared/respected, if not popular among classmates.

My parents still live close to my old school, and though I've only kept two friends from my schooldays, I still occasionally see former classmates on the street when I visit my parents. Unsurprisingly, given what all of our upbringings were like rough area, no expectations, few opportunities most of them look older than their years (we're early 50s), and have visibly had difficult lives without much money. I know one is serving a long jail sentence for drug dealing. And those were the leaders of the Darwinian pack from the ages of 5 to 18.

CoffeeCantata · 12/06/2024 16:45

@Amendment

An interesting and thought-provoking post! I get what you're saying about the fate of the bullies at your school, but I think the answer is: that's happened to them because of our complex modern society. In prehistory (or maybe only few hundred years or so ago) their personalities would have given them an advantage in Darwinian terms. They would have been good fighters, ruthless in their business dealings, probable cheated 'weaker' people and got away with it and been able to intimidate others to gain materially. In fact - one had clearly been doing just that, if he's in jail for drug dealing!

Granted, in our literate and supposedly sophisticated information technology age, they're not doing so well, and this is because (thank goodness) there are forces in our society which work against or mitigate the Darwinian ones. But it's a thin veneer!

GasPanic · 12/06/2024 17:00

I think people change as they get more experience.

A lot of children can be thoughtless because they have no idea how hurtful their behaviour is and they lack empathy.

When they experience bad behaviour towards themselves they realise how awful it is and change.

So no, I don't think if someone who is a bully as a child will necessarily be a bully as they get older.

Older people though, probably less scope for change. By the time you are 30 or so you should have experienced a fair amount of different behaviour from people and be in a position to understand how unpleasant bullying behaviour is.

If you are still a nasty piece of work after that age you are probably pretty much irredeemable.

JazbayGrapes · 12/06/2024 17:06

Thoughtless is very different from spiteful and abusive.

LadyMuckRake · 12/06/2024 17:18

People definitely mature. I did find that the people i 'clicked with' at school were still the people I clicked with 30 years later. There were still some stand offish people looking down at me, or there were still some people I couldn't keep a conversation afloat with. But I've changed so much since I was at school, it'd be kind of black and white to say NOBODY CAN CHANGE and it's also a bit black and white to say or think 'you weren't super nice to me so therefore you are evil. LOADS of people at school totally ignored me! i wasn't on their radar, and I still wasn't on their radar 30 years later, but I don't suppose that that makes them bad. We live in grey. The definition of ''bad'' isn't being oblivious to the charms of ladymuckrake. But I've met / read comments from people who define it like that. ie She ignored me so she is evil.

LadyMuckRake · 12/06/2024 17:22

WhatNoRaisins · 12/06/2024 15:36

Agree with above I always wonder what would happen if this type of bully went on to have a child with these "prey" type characteristics. Horrible thought.

Very few people ever see themselves as bullies. I used to work with a woman (so, an adult) who was involved in a bullying charity but she did what she could to exclude me from the chat at work. Whenever I said anything she'd react as though I'd said something really inappropriate/obvious/boring. I began to hesitate to speak around her. Everybody else liked her. She had two personalities on the go. One for charming people whose validation had value and another personality for people like me. I can guarantee you that if I learnt one thing about bullies it's that she identifies as being one of the good guys.

Nayouknow · 12/06/2024 23:31

LadyMuckRake · 12/06/2024 17:22

Very few people ever see themselves as bullies. I used to work with a woman (so, an adult) who was involved in a bullying charity but she did what she could to exclude me from the chat at work. Whenever I said anything she'd react as though I'd said something really inappropriate/obvious/boring. I began to hesitate to speak around her. Everybody else liked her. She had two personalities on the go. One for charming people whose validation had value and another personality for people like me. I can guarantee you that if I learnt one thing about bullies it's that she identifies as being one of the good guys.

Unless there’s additional information, this just sounds like a woman who didn’t like you. Disliking you - even if she was blatant about it - doesn’t make her a bully.

Amendment · 13/06/2024 12:56

Nayouknow · 12/06/2024 23:31

Unless there’s additional information, this just sounds like a woman who didn’t like you. Disliking you - even if she was blatant about it - doesn’t make her a bully.

Yes, it's disturbing how many posters on Mn can't tell the difference between 'bullying' and someone who just doesn't like you and can't or won't conceal it. Similarly throwing around armchair diagnoses like 'narcissist' when what they mean is 'someone who doesn't behave well to me'.

AddersAtDawn · 13/06/2024 13:04

I don't believe every bully is evil. My bully was being sexually abused by her stepdad. I don't believe she is evil. I believe she was a hurt and frightened teen who took it out on someone else.

Me too.

As an adult I reflect on my 3 12-13 yr old bullies:

  1. Stacey: Had a father in prison, and was allowed to stay out all night with no one at home caring for her, never had clean/unbroken kit or clothes
  2. Sarah: When I stayed over one night (before the bullying started) I had to go home because her parents were screaming blue murder at each other - terrified me who'd never seen adults behave so aggressively or out of control
  3. Caroline: Had a dad who had left her mum a year or two earlier for another woman with whom he started a new family and never contacted his old one; just abandoned his two daughters

I don't remember much more about their lives than that but all three scenarios stand out to me as something very hard for children to have to deal with.

Yes, they behaved awfully towards me and upset me greatly at the time. Knocked my confidence etc. But I struggle to hold them 100% responsible for that because I think they must have all had quite difficult childhoods in a way and I do kinda hope they went on to have happier adulthoods.

Nayouknow · 13/06/2024 15:06

Amendment · 13/06/2024 12:56

Yes, it's disturbing how many posters on Mn can't tell the difference between 'bullying' and someone who just doesn't like you and can't or won't conceal it. Similarly throwing around armchair diagnoses like 'narcissist' when what they mean is 'someone who doesn't behave well to me'.

These are exactly my thoughts.

BallaiLuimni · 13/06/2024 15:25

A friend and I bullied another girl in primary school. She was new to the school and was very awkward - we would make fun of her and make her feel like an idiot. We sort of became friends with her, strangely enough, though she was always an outsider and struggled academically and socially. We lost touch when we moved to secondary then met again at uni - I got really nervous around her as I remembered my behaviour and felt awful about it, but she seemed totally unbothered. I don't think I'm evil (but who am I to say) and I never to my knowledge bullied anyone again. I can't really say why we bullied her - something triggered this very mean streak that we found funny in each other, but that's not a very good explanation.

I used to be a teacher and I will say that in some circumstances children perceive bullying in situations that I wouldn't class as bullying at all. One common situation is where A likes B and wants to be their friend but B doesn't like A. If A is quite awkward or over the top, B might cope with that by pushing back quite hard on A, mocking, taunting etc. It comes across to me as a coping mechanism in a very awkward social situation. Another common situation is A wants B's attention very badly but they have issues around self esteem etc and don't know how to get that attention in a healthy way, so they get it negatively. If I'm taunting B and making her cry that's a form of engagement, even if it isn't a good form.

I think believing childhood bullies are 'evil' is very childish and simplistic and shows a basic lack of understanding of what other humans go through. Some people tried to bully me in secondary and didn't get very far - even then I had some sympathy for them, because to me a bully is someone who is often crying for help but in a really dysfunctional way.

The notion that someone doesn't change between 17 and 37 is just not even close to being true - how many people are the same person that they were when they left school? It's actually quite difficult not to change - it requires a complete lack of engagement with the world.

BestZebbie · 13/06/2024 16:03

I think a lot of casual bullying (as opposed to overt bids for dominance) comes from not really properly understanding that other people are quite as real as you are - all the low level "it was just a joke, lighten up" type stuff and minor tripping, hazing etc.
I'd like to think that a lot of that would fade away as the brain matures and people have more life experience, although it does appear that some people cop on age 8 whilst others haven't really got there yet at 35....

JazbayGrapes · 13/06/2024 16:19

Yes, it's disturbing how many posters on Mn can't tell the difference between 'bullying' and someone who just doesn't like you and can't or won't conceal it.

There is literally another thread where women argue that it is totally fine to act like your classmates are beneath you (because they are less intelligent, immature and shallow) but if they don't show you the utmost respect or as much as shoot you a dirty look - now that's bullying.
It really trivializes the issue.

GasPanic · 13/06/2024 16:26

BallaiLuimni · 13/06/2024 15:25

A friend and I bullied another girl in primary school. She was new to the school and was very awkward - we would make fun of her and make her feel like an idiot. We sort of became friends with her, strangely enough, though she was always an outsider and struggled academically and socially. We lost touch when we moved to secondary then met again at uni - I got really nervous around her as I remembered my behaviour and felt awful about it, but she seemed totally unbothered. I don't think I'm evil (but who am I to say) and I never to my knowledge bullied anyone again. I can't really say why we bullied her - something triggered this very mean streak that we found funny in each other, but that's not a very good explanation.

I used to be a teacher and I will say that in some circumstances children perceive bullying in situations that I wouldn't class as bullying at all. One common situation is where A likes B and wants to be their friend but B doesn't like A. If A is quite awkward or over the top, B might cope with that by pushing back quite hard on A, mocking, taunting etc. It comes across to me as a coping mechanism in a very awkward social situation. Another common situation is A wants B's attention very badly but they have issues around self esteem etc and don't know how to get that attention in a healthy way, so they get it negatively. If I'm taunting B and making her cry that's a form of engagement, even if it isn't a good form.

I think believing childhood bullies are 'evil' is very childish and simplistic and shows a basic lack of understanding of what other humans go through. Some people tried to bully me in secondary and didn't get very far - even then I had some sympathy for them, because to me a bully is someone who is often crying for help but in a really dysfunctional way.

The notion that someone doesn't change between 17 and 37 is just not even close to being true - how many people are the same person that they were when they left school? It's actually quite difficult not to change - it requires a complete lack of engagement with the world.

All of the people I have met (3) who have been bullies as adults have had deep rooted psychological issues caused by traumatic childhoods. I guess it is difficult though to get most people who engage in that sort of behaviour to reveal why, especially to their colleagues and people around them.

Don't get me wrong, these people were really unpleasant and nasty. But none of them were what I would call natural irredeemable psychopaths. They were created by their environment rather than being born that way. And I suspect that if these issues were dealt with via (probably extensive) therapy then their behaviour would have gotten a lot better.

JazbayGrapes · 13/06/2024 16:39

They were created by their environment rather than being born that way.

It may as well be genetic. Abusive parents - next generation abuser.

BallaiLuimni · 13/06/2024 16:40

GasPanic · 13/06/2024 16:26

All of the people I have met (3) who have been bullies as adults have had deep rooted psychological issues caused by traumatic childhoods. I guess it is difficult though to get most people who engage in that sort of behaviour to reveal why, especially to their colleagues and people around them.

Don't get me wrong, these people were really unpleasant and nasty. But none of them were what I would call natural irredeemable psychopaths. They were created by their environment rather than being born that way. And I suspect that if these issues were dealt with via (probably extensive) therapy then their behaviour would have gotten a lot better.

I don't know if I've met any bullies as an adult. My sister is impossible to get on with and comes across as very mean - as an adult I realise she's autistic and has no social skills. I don't really have a relationship with her only because I struggle to tolerate her - she could definitely be perceived as a bully by some, but in reality she just hasn't a clue how to behave.

I did work with someone who was awful and again could be perceived as a bully but in fact she was experiencing a lot of stress from the people above her and didn't know how to cope so passed that stress down - when I challenged her she suddenly realised what she was doing and stopped.

Hellostrawberries · 13/06/2024 16:41

I bullied someone at school. I'd been bullied myself for years and my immature brain saw becoming a bully as an outlet for my hurt. I'm now in my 50s and it remains the most shameful episode of my life. My victim moved close to where I live around 20 years ago and has become a good friend. I've apologised and she's fully accepted my apology. I, in turn, have totally forgiven my bullies. I'm glad I have the capacity to recognise that people can change and to both offer and accept forgiveness.

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