To think bullies and evil people never change even when they grow up?

[twoblackdogs]

Just this really.

We had an unofficial class reunion quite recently. There were some really evil bullies in our class, and now they are decent citizens, family people and caring parents, but I looked at them and thought that they just couldn't switch to the good side so easily and fully. How can one be really evil in the school and then suddenly become so very nice and kind and respected, and even doesn't (really?) remember his/her own evil deeds towards others? Do they really forget what they have done to some of their classmates, or they just don't care and think of themselves as good and decent people? Even knowing what they did? Or do they just laugh it off and say "oh, such and such had it coming/was too sensitive for his/her own good"? And everybody just thinks a world of good about them?
I remember my own bully, now a very respected family man. He just sort of laughs everything off. I don't think he's really changed.
Is it possible at all? Can such people change?
I still think that the little shit that once tortured kittens still is the same shit even if all grown up, respected in his job and raising a family.

ManchesterLu · Today 14:10
Kids are just so inexperienced with life and consequences of their actions. You don't know why they acted as they did, but lots of them will have been having terrible times at home. It's not an excuse, but an explanation. I know my DP openly admits to being a bully at school, and is mortified when he thinks back - he's lovely now, and has apologised to a few of the people he bullied (one is now a good friend).

You are not the same through your whole life. Your experience shapes you, and often bullies were victims themselves.

It's great that your DP has reflected and tried to make amends.

But I'm coming from the perspective of have a daughter who was subjected to awful bullying at school. She's over 30 now, but bears those emotional scars. She's never really managed to have many close relationships and is mentally fragile - her self-esteem was wrecked by some of those children, who have incidentally gone on to have happy and successful lives and careers.

They were all affluent, middle-class children, many with church-going parents.

DD's bullies haven't changed. Now in their mid twenties.
And I'm afraid I don't believe they were all abused. They certainly flocked together as birds of a feather do though... and magnified one another's horrible behavior.

Meanwhile DD's self esteem never really recovered. An eating disorder resulted, and remains stubbornly in place. I'm afraid I haven no faith in those young women. Nasty nasty children and people.

I think all those who say that bullies change gloss over the consequences for their victims. A lot of children are bullied because of their perceived sexuality. Nasty little homophobes who have life long effect; just one example

This. Most people age out of this kind of behavior.

Hurt people hurt people. Most of us have grown up and aren't the same people we were when we were kids. I was bullied terribly as a child. And only one of those bullies still is that person, just a grown up version. The rest are nice, normal people.

@sixtyandsomething @decionsdecisions62
Absolutely people can reflect and mature and change but I would find it unlikely that someone who was truly vile at school and had rejected and matured would have no recollection or minimise their behaviours.

True change would involve accepting and acknowledging the hurt they caused.

I know people who have changed. They know fully well how awful they were and they deeply regret it even if they had shit going on in their own lives. If they ever run up against their targets they take the opportunity to apologise and if the victim is not able to forgive them then they accept that.

Ohfuckrucksack · Yesterday 15:47
Also, 'evil' is dictated by society's values.

In one society an action would be considered 'evil' e.g hurting animals, hitting children, allowing euthanasia, death penalty, circumcision whilst another society accepts this and does not consider it so.

I don't know about 'evil' but I think there are absolutes, not reliant on specific cultures, but common to humanity.

My personal belief is that there are only 2 things that I consider'evil': cruelty and waste. Pretty much everything bad in the world comes under one or the other of these categories!

Reflected not rejected *

OP described them as "decent citizens, family people and caring parents". Her words. I certainly think those descriptors would say something about a person's character. YMMV.

Well OP said this guy used to torture kittens so..🤷‍♀️

Precisely.
My bully at senior school made my life absolutely miserable for 5 years, she knew exactly what she was doing. I heard years later that she abandoned her children and husband, became a drug addict and died of AIDS. I am not gloating at all, it’s very sad, but I do wonder about karma.
I have been bullied all my life until I retired. I sincerely hope that ward sister who made my life hell gets karma heaped on her. She should never have been nursing let alone in a position of authority.

It's not karma in the way 99% of people interpret it. She did not die as some kind of divine retribution for how she treated people.

It could be karma in the sense that she made decisions that affected and shaped her future, and it seems extremely obvious that she was an absolute wreck of a human who was long on a path of self destruction. That absolutely does not make it OK that she bullied you...but if she couldn't make decisions that worked to her benefit, I'm not surprised that she couldn't treat others decently when she couldn't look after her own best interests.

I think that's where a lot of people fall down when they look up their old bullies and see they've done well. They may have treated you like dirt and that is not OK (although children don't have the emotional maturity that we often put on them). But if they made good choices and worked hard in relationships and careers, it shouldn't be too surprising if they succeeded there, with the obvious caveat that some luck is always involved, from good health to being in the right place at the right time. They don't get punished with health problems or shit jobs or early deaths because they bullied someone years before.

I know someone who was a bully all through school (always loved animals tho but seemed to hate people). She says it was literally like she developed a conscience at 16/17 and was suddenly floored with guilt for everyone she’d hurt. She apologised to them and really struggled with guilt/ self harm for several years. I’ve known her 20 years, she works for a charity helping vulnerable people and I’ve never seen her be unkind to anyone. So yeah I think some bullies can change.

Good point. What OP is saying works both ways... might of been an angel at school. Later on in life.... could all change.

i must admit i dislike the term "bullying". It sorts of puts a"=" sign between playground spats, friendship fallouts and full on physical or sexual assault, targeted harassment, psychological torture. Like on the other thread someone said a dirty look or snide comment is bullying. Well no, these things are not the same.

I don’t think the OP was judgemental- just describing some of the bullies she’s met.

If you want an example of a judgemental post read your own:

‘Opine on their awfulness to make yourself feel better.’

I’m really sorry you experienced that at the school event. That’s awful - she’s a pathetic person! Clearly she’s not evolved as a person and for her to be a mother too urgh.

I’d be reporting her to the school as a safe guarding issue taking photos / videos of people other than her kid!

@CoffeeCantata - exactly - cruelty and waste. If we all lived by “Do unto others” we’d all be ok. No need to be religious, it works in any setting.

I think bullies are of several types. Dh went to a rough comprehensive and was picked on for being “posh” (because mil made him wear the correct uniform and he was a swot). He was pushed, shoved, jeered at, pursued home etc.

I went to an all-girls school and yet was subject to real meanness for this and that. Snide remarks, sniggering, secret nicknames . In my first job I encountered Mean Girls led by a Queen Bee. Frankly they sent me on a downward spiral.

I think some people - even from childhood - sniff out the weak or vulnerable and enjoy pawing them around like a cat with a bird.

I think that unless they've had some sort of intervention or massive personal revelation, they've just learned better social skills.

I think that unless they've had some sort of intervention or massive personal revelation, they've just learned better social skills.

This is what i think, especially if they never been corrected by adults when needed. They probably not assault someone in the street, but they could easily be abusive at home or just be plain spiteful, on constant power trips. Positions of authority disproportionately attract bullies and psychopaths.

There are a few I remember who I'd be very concerned if they worked with vulnerable people for example.

There are a few I remember who I'd be very concerned if they worked with vulnerable people for example.

The boys who assaulted me - i'm actually concerned for their wives.
And the mean girl is now a primary teacher. I wouldn't send my child to her class.

Someone who had been a friend of mine at primary school bullied me in secondary school. But because I knew her background - broken home, dad didn’t seem to give two shits about her, mum was nasty and always angry - I knew, even as a teenager, she was lashing out because of how sad she was on the inside. It doesn’t excuse her behaviour - I think she knew right from wrong, she just chose to behave that way regardless - but it did make me feel pity for her. Even as a teenager I could see how her behaviour spoke to how unhappy she was.
The people around her were obviously scared to become her target, but that’s not the basis of a friendship, so the fact that she didn’t have real friends probably compounded her loneliness.

I’ve gone on to have a happy life, so perhaps I’m lucky, the bullying I experienced hasn’t left scars. But I do remember it. And as sad as her childhood was, I don’t apologise for having a happy childhood home, love, support, academic success - all the things that made me her target.
I have, since becoming a parent of school-age children, wondered if she has ever reflected on her behaviour, and is ashamed of herself. Who knows.

Or their children if they have them. One was already sexually assaulting girls in year 7, I hope he doesn't have kids of his own.

MaturingCheeseball

I think some people - even from childhood - sniff out the weak or vulnerable and enjoy pawing them around like a cat with a bird.

I agree. I'm afraid this won't make me popular, but I've thought about this subject a lot and I think it comes down to Darwin and biology, basically.

In the animal world, any creature seen as weak will be picked on or abandoned by the parents or group. This keeps the gene pool strong.

I do think that anyone seen as being slightly different, or weak in some way, will become the target for bullies. And by weak, I mean someone who might be more sensitive, empathetic and kind - all wonderful characteristics from a moral viewpoint, but not, I'm afraid, from a crude and ruthless Darwinian one.

I'm totally on the side of the bullied, not the bullies, in case anyone's in any doubt! I didn't suffer much as a youngster myself, but my daughter (lovely, kind, sweet-natured, sensitive, later diagnosed with ASD) certainly did because she was perceived as being different. It's heart-breaking that no amount of intervention, teaching in school, campaigns etc seem to have any effect. Some of us humans are not very nice really.

I agree. I'm afraid this won't make me popular, but I've thought about this subject a lot and I think it comes down to Darwin and biology, basically.

This! Therefore, i strongly believe that there isn't any better anti-bullying medicine as teaching your child to fight back. None of this "the bully must be deeply unhappy" mush or "Tell an adult" crap. Get a detention/exclusion if you must, but it's not the 70s anymore - teachers won't beat you with sticks, but bullies will think twice before picking a fight with you.