Two 12 year old boys have been convicted of murder after stabbing a 19 year old man with a machete

[AngeloMysterioso]

AIBU to be gobsmacked and just terrified by this?!

I mean what the fuck are a pair of 12 year olds doing with a machete in the first place??

It’s not gentle parenting but parenting by loser parents - no education or skills, no work ethic, drugs and drink, the family on benefits, living in filth because they can’t be bothered, feral kids because they can’t be bothered - It’s all this that needs tackling by the government.

It’s not gentle parenting but parenting by loser parents - no education or skills, no work ethic, drugs and drink, the family on benefits, living in filth because they can’t be bothered, feral kids because they can’t be bothered - It’s all this that needs tackling by the government.

I do agree with this. The middle-classes misapplying gentle parenting and being overly permissive isn't ideal but it's not what leads to children being murderous sociopaths at age 12.

It is tragic and I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

But I teach and can see behaviour deteriorating in a terrifying way. Everyone I talk to in education says the same. I fear that the policies of the last decade, of no judgement or punishment, have contributed. We are not even allowed to tell a mum that her child has nits - too shaming.

Maybe, without threat of shame and judgement and punishment, some people simply revert to lawlessness.

I don't know. But I do know that there were teachers somewhere struggling to teach these young people and probably being told that they'd engage if only the lessons were more interesting.

Why oh why does every single discussion get dragged back to gender issues?

If you want them to learn a lesson they do.

Also they are highly likely to have been neglected and abused. They are both victims and perpetrators. They require the strongest of consequences and to be in a secure setting do that they can’t re-offend, but they also need to be understood in terms of human beings with a likely history of trauma and the impact of this on a still developing brain.

It’s both/and rather than either/or. They need to be treated as the children (likely traumatised and a product of neglect and or abuse, possibly groomed into a gang with this being an initiation) AND perpetrators of an abhorrent violent crime that requires the strongest of intervention to keep society safe.

Maybe, without threat of shame and judgement and punishment, some people simply revert to lawlessness.

Traditional fairytales that I remember from my childhood were horrific. I always thought that was deliberate, that they were cautionary tales meant to terrify children into not misbehaving or doing anything stupid.

There seem to be zero societal boundaries for children now and that in itself must be terrifying for them.

Again, it’s not either/or. You can keep boundaries and strong ones without using fear or shame. What you need to evoke is guilt. This guides our behaviour better than shame which actually tends to lead to defensiveness.

You can be relationship focused without letting go of boundaries. in fact the ideal is high warmth and empathy with clear and consistent boundaries. It’s not a choice of one or the other.

And gentle parenting doesn’t mean no boundaries. All kids need boundaries or they get anxious. A lack of boundaries or a failure to communicate about and intervene about poor behaviour is a failing, not an approach.

I think this is waaay more complex than just a lack of boundaries. And our school still sent out nits letters.

Unsupervised access to the internet is an issue. Families on the edge is an issue. Massive inequality, a lack of sense of community and belonging, a lack of opportunity are all issues. Early neglect/abuse and under resourced children’s services are an issue. Access to psychologically informed frontline children’s services are an issue.

None of the above are excuses. They are potentially influencing factors. We have to both address these AND protect the public by locking away offenders.

That sixty poster is spouting stupid views all over MN right now and claims to be a teacher. I just hope she isn’t.

JaneJeffer · Today 10:06*"

+ + The boys sat in the main well of the court instead of the dock. Alongside them were family members and specially trained staff to help them understand proceedings. + +

They should not be getting this soft treatment.

I see your point to an extent, but during the proceedings, they were unconvicted. Everyone has a right to a fair trial and to be able to understand the allegations, witness statements and general proceedings. Would you have a non English speaker not be allowed an interpreter, if they were on trial for something heinous?

And no, I'm not arguing that they ought to be let out at 18, or whatever.

They can be helped to understand proceedings without being mollycoddled. Part of the problem is that there's nothing for these children to be scared of even if they murder an innocent passer-by and nothing to deter others from doing the same.

But they are in a court system that treats people as innocent until guilty and so in dealing with children, they should be treated with the care you would expect for innocent children and not make the process the punishment.

I wouldn't call it mollycoddling, just trying to make the best of a total shitshow. What's the point of intimidating them and sit through long days? 12 year olds don't have the stamina and concentration of adults. I know they were guilty in this case, but what if there was a similar case and they were acquitted?

Would you say, "Ah well, suck it up, buttercup." ?

But whilst in this context that comment seems like an excuse, it is in fact correct that during adolescence we are more prone to take risks. It’s evolutionary - so that we fly the nest. The frontal cortex goes offline a bit whilst it wires up with the reactive limbic system. ‘Accelerator brain’.

So risky, knee jerk, emotionally driven decisions are more likely. You add into this a history of abuse/neglect/trauma (laving the brain in high alert for threat), adult role models that are aggressive and unpredictable, access to violent games/films/content and/or gang related grooming and you’ve got a very risky situation.

I remember working with young people whose parents had bought animals specifically to shoot them in front of the small children. What hope did those little innocent poppets have of not growing up to be unempathic monsters?

Once their brains have been shaped like that, society does need protecting but there is always hope for rehabilitation but it would take reparenting over a long period of time which would be prohibitively expensive. We need to get better at early intervention. Much cheaper and less traumatic for all than dealing with horrific events like this and long prison sentences.

Best bet is prevention. Robust services for vulnerable families pre and post natal.

Well perhaps the parents would start parenting and actually know what their kids are doing and where they are if one or two cases were used as examples and people lost their benefits due to lack of parenting

Tenants can also lose their council house if they or their children are continually in trouble but I've yet to hear of it being done.

Yes it is totally unfair on other members of the family and is also unfair that if you don't own your home you could be subject to losing it, home owners wouldn't be subject to this of course, somewhat unfair again

Perhaps another option would be the parents have to do community service if their child collects too many asbo's etc

And yes I am in favour if the parents being on trial as well

These kids have no structure in their life. What are they even doing out on a winter evening like in a park.
Something seriously wrong with the parenting.

that poor guy. killed so senselessly.

They don't bother turning up if you've been burgled so they're not going to be marching the streets in effective numbers, are they?!

This is what happens when authority is taken away from teachers, parents, police and the judiciary. This has been a slow burn for 40 years and look where it has got us. An out of control benefits culture, no consequences for bad behaviour. Children with no strong role models, too many do Gooders shouting about people's "rights" to do as they please, to disrupt other peoples lives, no respect, no manners.
Treating nasty little thugs with kid gloves. I laughed out loud when it was reported that the 2 12 year old machete murderers were treated like little lambs, Barristers and judge please take off your wigs, they might feel intimidated. Jesus christ on a fucking 3 wheeler bike, is this where we are at?
I'm a firm believer in spare the rod and spoil the child. What these little bastards needed was a few bloody good hidings and be put firmly in the knowledge that they need to behave.....or else.
Oh and some so called "parents" should be forcibly sterilised. Put armed soldiers on the streets patrolling. Stop these fuckers from attacking and murdering innocent citizens.
How much worse does it need to get before someone actually the balls to wake up and smell the coffee?
Now hand me my arse on a plate!!!

I think most of us, whether in a classroom, workplace, supermarket or anywhere do the right thing because we know right from wrong.

We don't need rules or laws to frighten us into doing the right thing. Most of us don't eff and blind on a train or carry a knife because we know it's wrong to do so and most of us wouldn't steal from a corner shop when the owner is in the back because we know it's wrong.

However, there are some people who only avoid doing the wrong thing because they need laws and rules that will punish them. They only stay on the side of good behaviour because they are frightened of consequences.

As those consequences are removed or watered down-either school rules or in society generally, as more and more excuses are made as to why harsh consequences shouldn't be enforced-this group of people become emboldened.

They have no moral compass themselves and with no strong consequences, to afear them, they just do what their nature dictates and behave badly.

Of course, there will always be those who do what they want, even if consequences are in place but I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about the group who need fear to make them behave. That's why we have to put an end, in my opinion, to soft soaping and looking hard for reasons to excuse them.

It doesn't matter if their great granny brought them up in an abandoned mole hill. So what. They don't become bad bastards because of this and it is insulting to those who had the same or worse upbringing to suggest that this gives them a pass because they don't know any better.

The parents are wholly to blame and if they have other children, they should be taken in to care.

Whole areas of the UK need to be addressed and more done to stop these crimes.

Sorry but stop and search has been proven to be racist. That isnt a deterrant or the answer as to why a 12 year old murdered someone with a machete,.

Do you not think knowing you could be stopped and searched would prove a deterrent to carrying weapons or is it more knowing they wont be stopped and searched for weapons is what gives them the bravado to do so?

I think its a dangerous mix with feeling invincible and estranged from society. The choices someone makes when they decide to carry around a weapon arent ever going to be rational. The fear of being caught just doesnt exist.

Not to mention, there has been no note that the perpetrators were not white. If they were white, they would be even more emboldened to do it.

This.

I read recently that in a class of 27 for reception year in 2023, 8 had not been toilet trained.
The lines are becoming so blurred now for poor teachers - more parents and social workers in many cases than actually being able to teach.