To be terrified by Farage/Reform's plans to replace the NHS with "an insurance based model"?

[Gillemeow]

It seems to have been largely overlooked by the mainstream media but Nigel Farage on the debate last night was clear that he thought the NHS should be replaced by an insurance model.

Given that most of the country are already crippled by the current cost of living crisis, how does he expect people to pay this extra cost? If employers have spare cash to do it (as in France or the USA where many get insurance via their employer), why aren't they giving decent wage rises?

His plans would penalise people with existing health conditions. And which sex would end up paying more.for insurance? The one that gives birth and goes through menopause or the one that doesn't?

In France contraception is only free if you're under 26. What if you're not? Will the right wing's phrase of choice on children change from "don't have children of you can't afford them" to "don't have sex if you can't afford it"?

Op this already happens, in layers and layers and layers within the NHS. I’m not sure where you’ve got the idea that no administration system exists in the current system because treatment is ‘free’?

That would absolutely never happen in France. Maternity is fully covered no need for private top ( you might have to share your hospital room but that’s it)

No but it’s not all down to how the nhs is funded and managed external factors influence the ability to recruit staff to an area, or the ability to move patients through and avoid bed blocking. High housing costs in some areas really affects recruitment. Some areas, I live in one of them, have a huge elderly population as they move in as they get old. There aren’t enough local women ( it’s predominantly women) who want to work as carers to fulfil the vacancies. So you get bed blocking. Before the country went through austerity things were generally ok for most people. We need the kind of change that happened after ww2 but I don’t think we will get it

We do vote for some odd things in this country, but him as PM is not going to be one of them.

Nightmare. The move away from NHS dentistry has hardly been a success - people simply can't afford it so aren't getting treated or at worst doing it themselves! Same will be the case for private health care which is a grim prospect.

"Health and health system ranking of countries worldwide in 2023 | Statista" https://www.statista.com/statistics/1376359/health-and-health-system-ranking-of-countries-worldwide/

Well it's 34th in 2023.

Farage won't even show up as an MP. Can you really see him representing the people of Clacton for five years? He just wants to be Tory Leader and will bin off Reform at the first sniff of it.

The proposals Reform have put forward are just statements. "We will do X".....They haven't said how they are going to do it. I think Labour have said "we will do X and we will raise the money by"....I haven't seen that from Reform yet. To me that sounds like they haven't even worked out the mechanics of their policies yet, just what their ideology is.

Not that I'm keen on voting Labour since Starmer is happy to get rid of much loved MPs that people actually vote for, because they are a little bit too left wing for him. He obviously hasn't heard of the dangers of group think. That's why we are in such a mess now.🙄

@Gillemeow"Shocked at the amount of people who seem to be happy with the proposal of an insurance based system.

Are the insurance companies going to be working for free? What about the extra staff hospitals will need to tot up the bills? "

This is not what Farage is proposing - and not how the "Krankenkasse" system works in places in Europe.

The insurance is paid into a mutual, public Fund, not to private insurance companies. This was the original basis of funding for the NHS, but instead of ringfenced Funds, the politicians hi-jacked the National Insurance system and used it for their own ends.

The Health Funds cannot exclude people based on existing conditions, nor can they raise "premiums" because there are no premiums. People pay according to a progresive system (just like taxation) whereby employees and employers pay a percentage of their gross income. The more you earn, the more you pay. In terms of money coming out of your pay packet, it is no different to the UK National Insurance contributions. The difference is in where this money goes, and how the healthcare is delivered (by a multitude of providers, not just through the equivalent of the NHS).

"What about the extra staff hospitals will need to tot up the bills? Epidural cost, gas and air, emergency C-section, 4 slices of post labour toast, it all adds up.".

As it happens, where I live patients are actually charged a small fee for hospital food and drink (chosen from a menu that is tailored to the patient's health condition, religion etc) but not for drugs, gas and air, the surgery itself etc. The charge is "per day" and is payable when you leave the hospital.

Will there be a sign on the hospital door "only xxx insurance accepted here"?

Actually yes. But only at a few private hospitals and clinics which choose not to accept patients through the public insurance system. Anyone who wishes to can seek treatment at these hospitals, but they (or their commercial insurance policies) have to pay. Just as already happens in the UK if people seek private treatment. But where I live public healthcare is so good that very few people have private insurance as there is no need for it.

@Soukmyfalafel this is very true he would actually have to .work and be helpful!

Jeez - don't you think they're already paying for enough? Like someone else said, it's the people that contribute sweet FA that are the problem. There really is a point where it just doesn't make sense anymore to work harder.

And no, there's no point in being terrified. Labour will win the election.

You do realise that in the UK all political parties have to have equal air time. Unlike the USA they can't go around buying advertising or getting extra by paying for it. It may seem like he has more than the main parties proportionally, but they all have to have the same. So the smaller ones get the same as the bigger ones.

I'm more concerned that you think you think there is a point to Nigel Farage.

"It's the people using it that don't contribute a single penny to its running that cause the issue."

"It's the people using it that don't contribute a single penny to its running that cause the issue."

If you are one of the people spouting this offensive rubbish, just hope that you are not involved in an accident, or diagnosed with a critical illness, or otherwise become physically or mentally incapacitated.

How can a man work in his manual job when he's waiting 18 months for a hip operation? All the time he's off work, he's not "contributing a single penny." What about students, mothers on maternity leave, the unemployed, carers and other unwaged? People who contribute to society in other ways than simply through the tax system?

Most people not contributing are doing so through self inflicted means tbh.

Like getting old?

It absolutely has been a success. The state is paying much less for dentistry now. Which is exactly why it was done.

He won’t get in but even so I wouldn’t write off the idea completely, he’s not advocating like the USA- that is truly awful but European style insurance systems- different kettle of fish. I think part subsidised by the state and part insurance, I have no idea what they do for the low income/ homes less etc, but I’ve never seen a news story about French homeless or poor unable to get treatment. I have a friend who moved to France but sadly the got diagnosed with thyroid cancer, he got seen reallY quickly and is under going treatment. He would love to come back to the UK, but is worried the level of care would not be the same. He currently has no job and hasn’t mentioned struggling with affording it so must be ok

I think you are right to be worried. There are rumours, hopefully misplaced, that should he be elected for Clacton then he will then immediately defect to the Tories and put himself forward as a candidate for the inevitable leadership contest that follows. You only need to look at the polls to see that the Cons and Reform added together would not be far away from Labour, and that to me is a major worry.

I don’t think there is any danger of Reform being elected or even taken particularly seriously so I’d not give it a second thought.

Like being disabled?

I can't really complain about the Dutch system. It costs me and my husband 150 euros a month each with a maximum 385 euro copay per year. Our DD goes completely free including dental care. People with less money get a subsidy so that the cost is close to zero. No copay for GP appointments. Insurance companies can't deny you for pre-existing conditions.

I do have to pay for my contraceptives myself, but it is less than 10 euros a month. I do think that is a bit unfair though.

Currently I am in the middle of a multi-year course of treatment for my jaw, it was a two month wait for the surgeon (non-urgent). Apart from my copay I have not had to pay for anything the surgeon has done or my orthodontic treatment. Because I will have met my maximum copay the surgery will be 'free', including two nights stay in hospital and food etc.

Sounds absolutely terrifying lol

I think the 2010 stats aren’t based on outcomes though, only on if it’s ’worth it’.

Even by your own stats, it was 34th last year

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1376359/health-and-health-system-ranking-of-countries-worldwide/

A lot more people to treat (net migration) and a lot less funding. Hence it’s on its a**e.

Nope. Effectiveness of care too - as shown in this table which I’ve already shared here.

That man (a close relative who has worked and contributed since the age of 16, now middle aged) is waiting for 18 months for treatment (lost his job in the meantime and his home), because there is always someone else who hasn’t contributed a penny who is more of a priority. Been there, seen it. It’s a farce.