It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

@MyNameIsFine ,

There is a broad demographic who access private schools but the median parent is rich by most people’s standards. There is much anecdote in these threads about suffering parents who will struggle to pay the VAT and, of course, these do exist but the vast majority are very wealthy. See the below:

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2021/02/08/housing-wealth-not-bursaries-explains-much-of-private-school-participation-for-those-without-high-income/

I don't particularly like grammar school systems but where I live grammar schools already get less money than a lot of other state schools. Class sizes are also big, particularly in sixth form. They are not getting the privileges of private schools at all.

@Newbutoldfather I've been using this data on threads here, but all the private school parents claim its not true of theirs.

Apparently all the families live in tents next to the school and forage for food in order to be able to go there.

Correct. And it is not just merit-based reward, the kids are expected to bring school sports music, chess, art... achievements in all competitions. Not sure if this is a comfortable place to be

@Persimonne72

A scholarship/bursary is like a business transaction. The scholarship kids all get great results, they bring the extra curriculars, they overwhelmingly improve the % of acceptances at top unis.

Its part of marketing, it isn't philanthropy.

Its why the private parents here who are stamping their feet and insisting that their school has said they will stop bursaries are talking rot.

If you are including the large independent boarding schools in there, that's going to really skew the statistics. There are schools where the super rich go, and we all avoid them. We're looking for different things in a school.

Scholarships and bursaries are not the same thing. Some scholarships have bursary elements. More scholarships have bursary elements now than 30 years ago (possibly linked to the abolition of assisted places) in order to improve access.

I am not sure why you consider scholarships and bursaries in the same way. Unlike scholarships, bursaries are not based on merit but on financial circumstances, no matter if he was just accepted or accepted with flying marks at 11+ etc.

they overwhelmingly improve the % of acceptances at top unis.

there would be a lot of music, art and sport students then. Only a fraction gets other scholarships

@Mirabai yes I know.

Most "Bursaries" without scholarship conditions are fee reductions/discounts for 2nd children or children of staff so hardly the stuff of philanthropic zeal.

Almost all students receiving financial aid outside of this will have minimum academic achievement targets as well as things like community targets etc.

@MyNameIsFine ,

That just isn’t how statistics work. You include all the data. The super rich famous boarding schools are a small proportion of the total. If I excluded all the cheaper schools, it would skew the statistics in the other direction.

If we want to go for anecdote, at the (central London) school where I taught, more than half of my form used to go skiing in the Feb half term and they mostly took at least one (many two) foreign holidays in the summer.

But, fortunately, I know anecdote and data are two different things.

" are not based on merit but on financial circumstances, no matter if he was just accepted or accepted with flying marks at 11+ etc."

@Persimonne72 The vast majority of bursaries come with minimum academic levels of achievement. No school is handing money to Tim nice but Dim because his parents can't quite afford the fees.

The vast majority of bursaries come with minimum academic levels of achievement. No school is handing money to Tim nice but Dim because his parents can't quite afford the fees.

I am not sure how it is different than what I wrote-?. I said clearly that as long as the pupil was accepted at school then he/ she could be eligible for a bursary- subject to financial circumstances and others competing for a bursary.
= There is no marketing here similar in any way to scholarship. Bursary is not given to those who pass with the highest marks. It can be even the child with the lowest pass

Scholarships are awarded on performance, bursaries - on economic need.

In the old days they were different entities - scholarships didn’t necessarily have fee reductions, and to be eligible for a bursary a student just had apply and pass the exams.

Now, in practice, where very substantial bursaries are offered by wealthy schools, those are often linked to performance in the entrance exam.

“Minimum academic level of achievement” merely means passing the exam like everyone else. That’s it.

Now, in practice, when very substantial bursaries are offered by wealthy schools, they are often linked to performance.

Can you give specific examples of such schools? and how "often"?
Linked to performance are scholarships

@Persimonne72

As a former insider ( I worked in both the teaching and management side of a public school). I can tell you that students getting bursaries are almost always those with higher marks unless they are the special interest ones discussed before. In most schools there are too few bursaries to give out to make it so that people who get marks which put them in the middle of the pack on admissions would get them, the school has a commercial interest in maintaining the highest results.

and this is exactly what I was was saying

@Mirabai "“Minimum academic level of achievement” merely means passing the exam like everyone else. That’s it.

No, minimum level of academic achievement tends to mean maintaining an average of 75% in all assessments.

We’re on the same page that scholarships are awarded on performance and bursaries on financial need. But there is a crossover in that some scholarships have a bursary element.

Some students will get an academic/music/sports scholarship awarded on merit with or without a bursary aspect, snd some will be offered a bursary which only requires the entrance exam to be passed.

I can’t really give examples of schools without outing my own education and my kids.

Thanks but this is a hearsay and suggests that the school where you were insider exercises a dodgy system. Bursaries are NOT merit-based as scholarships are but are distributed basing on financial circumstances. Many schools employ independent companies to visit houses, check finances etc and decide on bursaries - just to show the fairness of the process,

If you get an academic scholarship you’re expected to work hard and do well.

To get a bursary you just apply on economic need, you don’t have to achieve a minimum exam marks other than passing the exams and interview, otherwise it would be a scholarship.

Some schools may ask higher results than average for their bursaries but certainly not all.

Its not hearsay.

How do you allocate the bursary budget? You can keep telling yourself that bursaries are not merit based, and yes this is true when siblings, children of staff etc are concerned.

However, in any cohort coming for an application cycle there will be more students that need a bursary in order to attend than there are bursaries. Who does the school give them to? Does Sam and Charlie who got enough to get in as a fee paying student get it, or does it go to Henry and Robert who got among the top level students?

A child can obtain a scholarship ( based on merit) and bursary ( based on financial circumstances). One doesn't contradict the other one.

I am yet to get that examples of schools where bursaries are given on merit and not only financial circumstances - from somebody who mentioned it above

An insider in one school.

The schools I know are so massively oversubscribed that the commercial aspect rather takes care of itself. Maintaining results is an academic interest not a commercial one.

@Persimonne72

As I said, look at the process .