It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I completely agree with you....but most people didn't do that stress test on their personal finances.

So then it's reasonable to laugh at 2 sets of "daft" people who "could never have afforded it anyway":

1. parents who afford private school fees now having to find 20% more
2. people who are struggling to pay higher mortgages now

According to some posters, both were predictable and they only have themselves to blame...

It depends what you mean by 'leave'. Except for the small schools, which specialise in pastoral care and don't have large facilities and 'war chests', most schools will continue to fill their places. Boarding schools will attract foreign students; those families who were planning on boarding might save money by sending their children to day schools, taking the places vacated by families that can no longer afford it.

You could argue that about any of the recent price hikes. People should have planned better. People shouldn't have had children if they couldn't afford them. etc. etc. Doesn't change the fact that we're all less well off and that's going to have a knock on affect on the economy.

I think it differs from school to school. some schools have done a huge amount, which massive outreach programs. Other schools have done nothing.

Our school has several full bursaries. And deposits are refundable when the pupil leaves (not if a place not is taken up). It was this deposit which, when their DCs left, many parents donated to fund these bursaries. Very few donated this year.

I think it is wrong to describe it as “going to war” by the schools. I fear it will just be a “cost cutting” exercise where instead of sharing the facilities, schools will rent them out, instead out outreach programs, they charge for course (to be paid by aspirational state parents) instead of asking parents to donate to bursaries, they ask money to keep costs down.

It doesn’t matter to us anyway, we are going to switch to state. And, we can pay for courses, extras and use of facilities.

However, I used to volunteer with mentoring /tutoring a few children in state school (homework planning, interview practice, targeted help). I am going to stop and spend that time with my own children. It was something I did to give back - I see less reason to do that now.

I really, really hope that these extra teachers materialise, that is is used for state schools and that this doesn’t damage really good relationships between state schools and private schools. But I am not that hopeful. The glee of some posters at the thought of children switching to state is awful - hardly something which encourages those parents to continue lobbying for increased state support.

I haven't been laughing at any of this. (If that was directed at me).

I slightly cringe at the Lady Bountiful posts about “helping” the poor deprived state school pupils and now due to VAT policy (which is not the fault of state school pupils by the way) that largesse will be withdrawn and they can now fuck off.

Yes, based in the UK, I’m typing on a phone so please excuse my typos. But whilst we are on pedantry, Labour could absolutely model various scenarios and have chosen not to as this wouldn’t suit their campaign. Regarding ‘skin in the game’, not sure these are words I’d choose to describe a child, but that aside, yes I’m a UK-based private school parent. I reside in one of the London borough’s that has already declared they do not have free primary school places. This of course would be an ideal thing for Labour to model, to prove their theory is backed by data. Alas it would no doubt tell a tale no one wants to hear.

I find it sad that parents are pitted against each other by this. It is very emotional for everyone ☕️.

genuine questions, for all posters who are happy about this:

Do you think that there really will be that much extra money once changes in school choices, changes in working hours, etc has been taken into account?

and do you think that any money will be earmarked for schools as additional funding given the current economic situation? I believe there are a huge amount of underpaid nurses out there, the public sector is huge, several councils are going bankrupt, etc. I would assume that interest payments on public debt is huge as well… and the. There is the defence - unless Labour is going to cut back on that?

I don't think schools will actually behave like that. Part of education is teaching young people to be good members of society, and that includes working with other schools in the community. Believe it or not, schools are not actually trying to teach young people to be self-centred and screw everybody else! Whatever the parents think, the schools will stick to their values.

@MyNameIsFine As I mentioned, I do not favour applying VAT on private schools. I think it would end up with a false economy, where the gov would need to build new schools to accommodate more kids as their parents cannot afford them. I guess that 20 perc VAT will not cover that expense.

Many private school will bankrupt anyway as soon as Chinese and Russian students will stop coming to UK to complete their education

Many private school will bankrupt anyway as soon as Chinese and Russian students will stop coming to UK to complete their education

I thought private schools were populated by the children of normal working British people driving ‘old bangers’.

Are you talking about boarding schools? Day schools aren't going to have a lot of overseas students. Why do you think the Chinese and Russians are going to stop coming, out of interest?

Yes boarding schools- they are all private.

Surely you must be aware about geopolitical situation that every minute is going from bad to worse.

Boarding schools aren’t all private. Not sure what the rest has to do with VAT.

How do you imagine that the little Chinese and Russians end up in not private? :)))

Not sure what the rest has to do with VAT.

Well, you are not sure because you just read my last comment and not the earlier one :)

According to some posters, the “plan” has been out there for years…. So it follows, when it all goes pearshaped, the Labour Party have been clearly planning this for years and years and have a secretive budget plan so it will all be fine!
Or did they just expect the private school parents to plan for this hike with zero planning on their part as to how it will all actually pan out in various locations?

The largesse point is complicated because charity law was changed around 2010 so that education per se was not charitable - it had been since the 1500s and instead schools and opera houses etc had to show a benefit other than to their members - to the public. The rules are if you are a very rich school (not many of those) then it needs to be quite substantial help, bursaries etc. If you don;t have much money (which many more will not as they try to cushion the blow of £4k per child a year increases due to VAT) just have to do something for the public eg no bursaries but let the public walk the grounds or use the pool or whatever.

It would make sense for schools to scrap bursaries and concentrate after the 20% rise on the children whose parents are paying the fees (under the current regime of highest tax burden for 70 years and a massive bloated state).

Short of their government actually stopping them from leaving, what's the stop Chinese students coming? I know travel to and from Russia is v. difficult at the moment.

When I was talking about penalising some of our state schools, I meant the types my own DC went to- church and grammar state schools.
The type of thinking that dislikes private schools so much also dislikes selective state schools and those with religious affiliations. I don’t trust them to not lower budgets per child even further there either. Especially if that is where the private school demographic flock. Next they will also be told to fund raise more? Anyone else worried about this who is a state parent?

Well exactly - surely half of rich Russia wants to get their boys out before conscription age, if at all possible? And Chinese students flock here too to get away and live in a democratic country with more freedom?

I know travel to and from Russia is v. difficult at the moment.

And impacting the no of Russian students in UK. That has influence on financial standing of private boarding schools

There are approximately 2300 Russian children being educated in independent schools in the UK with fees averaging £44,000.

what's the stop Chinese students coming?

if you noticed I was writing in future tense when I mentioned geopolitical situation two posts ago

@Xenia ,

Bursaries aren’t as altruistic as people think. They are generally awarded to those likely to get great A level result and go to an excellent uni which, in turn, draws other pupils to the school. In a sense it is marketing. If a school gives up bursaries, watch the results plummet (both examinations and on the sports field).

As for the tax burden being the highest for years, that is true in total and particularly harsh on the middle classes. But private schools are no longer the preserve of the middle classes. With property taxes low (unless you move house) and CGT at 20% or 28%, not even discussing the non dom tax breaks or carried interest, taxes are pretty low for your average private school parent.

Both Sunak and Starmer paid about 25% tax on total income of around £500k last year (mostly CGT).

A lot of families aren't paying out of income, though. They are using savings and subsidised by other relatives (mainly grandparents, but something unmarried sisters/brothers). Many people start saving up before they even get married or have met anybody they want to have children with! So you can't assume that we're talking about top earners with big bonuses. (interestingly, Labour rowed back on their plans to cap bonuses and tax the rich - it's only private school parents left now).

Absolutely @Newbutoldfather
Ditto scholarships. It's a way of buying talent out of the state sector. It's a great deal for the schools because they get to attract talent and results away from the state sector where it's probably been seeded and nurtured