It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

If everyone who is currently self-funded demands place, there will be a huge issue, because all those who have been covering your families (and others costs) won’t be, in simple terms. Why would you expect that others should foot the costs of families that make insufficient contributions for the services they remove?

That’s an outright lie and you know it.

If that is the case Labour should go ahead and model the scenarios, borough by borough, but they won’t because it’s a crock of shit. Brexit style.

Bridget Phillipson if you’re reading, please can you and the Labour party publish a list of school places available, split by school year and borough, starting with London/greater London and the south east?

@80smonster it varies hugely across the country. Where I am most state schools have spare places and many are reducing their published admission numbers.

Cool - let’s have a list of vacant state school places published. If there are so many going begging this will be an easy report to pull together - won’t it?

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Councils can tell you where there are spaces at any given time but the numbers change all the time.

Private school parents are already paying for their state school place.

@bakebelieve "Private school parents are already paying for their state school place."

Yes-that's why it's fine for them to apply for a state school place. For all of us there are things we contribute to in our taxes t at we don't personally use. That's how taxation works.

Yes they’ve self-funded whilst paying taxes for the place they don’t require. Unfortunately this has many understating both the size of the issue, but also the fundamental cost to the state.

Maybe we should all get our state contribution to spend as we choose? Maybe this would shine a light on large families with low incomes?

No they can’t - I asked ours today.

I think what you mean is the council can confirm there is a waiting list, they are not obliged to tell you your placement on this list, nor the speed at which you may move up it. So basically they can confirm there is a list, is that what you mean?

Don't worry @80smonster in a few years the children of those large families will be providing services you rely on, you know like working in care homes and emptying your bins.

The small-mindedness I mean in relation to the attitude of tax paying in general, as that PP seemed to think other people should be grateful that they're paying tax.

Getting back to specifically in relation to VAT on private schools - I haven't been gleeful at all, by the way.

The fact remains that to be able to afford private school (as opposed to a having a funded SEN placement), you'd have to be in roughly the top 30% of household income to even be able to consider paying for private education and probably in the top 15% to be able to afford the fees to privately educate more than one child.
Less than 10% of the school population is at a private school, it can be no surprise that vast majority of the population probably couldn't care less about the VAT aspect, especially in a COL crisis.

I don't think it is small-minded on the part of people who are genuinely making decisions between food or heating in the winter, that they're less than bothered about VAT on something they will probably never be within their reaches; in those circumstances I think it understandable that there's more than a little disdain for what the majority of the population see as a "my diamond shoes are too tight" kind of a problem.

Yes. We'd be in a sorry state if all the poor people stopped doing useful work and became highly paid but basically useless. I wonder who we'd miss most - bin men or the apparently incompetent CEO s of the post office, royal mail, various tax dodging private companies?

Sure it’s been said but didn’t Covid shine a light on the really vital jobs?

Again I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Even if the council can't tell you where there are spaces then individual schools can. As for waiting lists, they are changing all the time and as previous posters have said schools will admit according to the admissions policy. So your place on it will always depend on who else is joining and others might overtake you, just as you might overtake others when you join

I appreciate it is frustrating but there is no big secret or conspiracy as you seem to be implying.

Do they also tot up that they haven't used the fire brigade this year or driven down the M62 or been referred to social services?

They're not directly purchasing personal services with their taxes like some sort of pick and mix

Just to clarify I didn't mean to suggest you'd been gleeful (I've enjoyed reading your posts), more just the general vibe I'm seeing.

I guess my concern is everyone seems to find it very amusing at the moment but I just think it could make things worse for everyone by making private schools even more elitist and putting a larger burden on state schools. To my mind it would be better if private schools were more accessible so more people opted out of the state system leaving more tax payer funds for everyone else.

Have the Torys published modeling for all the potential scenarios for all their policies then?. I don't think I have seen anything for the National Service one or anything else for that matter.

But how would the council be able to tell you how fast you're moving up the list because that would require some sort of clairvoyance to predict how many children will leave a school in any given year group and time frame.

In any case, they don’t tell you your place in the list because that isn't how it works anyway.

When a space comes up, the entry criteria are applied to everyone on the list and the child/ren at the top of the criteria get the place(s) and if they decline it, it is offered to the next best fit.

Many schools hold their own lists - eg it was common for church-aided schools to do this even before academies existed (which is why the council isn't able to say).

Ah, yes it is a shame that there is not a calmer debate without the "vitriol" (I'm not sure I like that word but can't think of another).

I'm opposed to private schools on principle because I think that education should be a level playing field no matter what your income.

With that said, I accept that that is utopian, and obviously there are good and bad state schools.

I do think that the whole state education system needs a complete rethink/overhaul (including the NC, SATS and exams)

I don't believe that (more) people opting out of the state provision would leave more taxpayer funds for everyone else - and this is because then there is no motivation for those in power (who can generally afford private) to improve the state provision.
For example, I hazard a guess that the NHS would be in a far better state if the Conservative politicians and their donors had no alternative but to use the NHS, but I digress.

Who has been covering my families costs please? We more than cover our costs thanks.
There might be a huge issue, for those families who failed to budget properly. That's not the concern of families already navigating the state system in the usual way. Private school children will have the same access to the applications system as anyone else - if it's inconvenient, well that's their own fault isn't it.

Seems like it would be their own fault for not planning and budgeting properly...