to suggest that every single parent with a child at private school apply for a state school place asap?

[sarjd]

let's see how that works.

No, it won't do either of those things. It's an unfair policy that won't afford anything but a headache to the treasury. I expect it will still happen though.

@Araminta1003 "VAT won’t go to music schemes, it will go to a Central Government black hole."

It doesn't have to be like that... that is just an excuse not to try something different to support those who are less well off.

The VAT has already been fully allocated to new teachers and mental health support so it won’t be spent on that. In reality, it’s going to raise less than the IFS forecasts anyway.

And...breakfast clubs??...if I remember rightly?

We weren't discussing that - read the posts again - this was in response to someone suggesting the music lessons are taxed.

You would also have to ban home education and ban children from leaving the country so that parents couldn't sneakily sign them up to an overseas private school. Sounds a bit fascist.

You are not listening @northernerinthesouth2000 - I do give to the local charitable music schemes and I trust them far more with my cash than Central Government and their fair weather politics.

Just like Eton College can be far more trusted with doing partnerships with some state schools and actually raising aspiration than the DFE. It is the reality on the ground.

Stop feeding the central government black hole. They are useless! This country is run through charities at ground level. Those in Parliament are just buffoons fighting silly games instead of getting actual work done. This VAT policy is another prime example of just that!

I think they’ve said that’s going to funded with the non dom changes.

In reality, it’s going to raise less than the IFS forecasts anyway."

It won't, it will raise there or thereabouts what the IFS predicted and any shortfall will be covered by the increase in VAT take from other forms of consumption from the small number of parents who now spend their fees elsewhere.

@Araminta1003 no I am listening BUT I don't agree and you clearly don't like that!

To be honest @Araminta1003 it is not just about the money the raised by the scheme - there is a principle here too. People with more should pay more taxes and I think VAT on luxury education is fair enough.

The IFS forecasts are based on 3-7% leaving private school. Numbers are already down about 3% this year and that’s before the policy is introduced. Their forecasts, therefore, are on the low side. They also assume that every penny no longer spent on fees will be spent on other things subject to 20% VAT. It won’t. A large part will be spent on foreign holidays and savings, none of which is subject to UK VAT. Some will make larger pension payments. Not only is this not going to bring in VAT, tax relief will be due.

" They also assume that every penny no longer spent on fees will be spent on other things subject to 20% VAT."

Incorrect. They actually simply said that any possible shortfall in the tax take that they anticipate directly from VAT would likely be made up on expenditure taxes elsewhere.

Actually I think the IFS estimates are a little too generous, the actual fall in numbers is going to be significantly lower. Demand for private education is highly inelastic.

“People with more should pay more taxes and I think VAT on luxury education is fair enough.”

I disagree on a fundamental principle because Education all over the world is considered a social good and an investment in the future of society. If you commodify it, you open the flood gates to “moral taxes” and even more division in this country. And you ruin our international reputation even more. What do you think international students are going to fear what will happen if we do an anomalous move like that? It is too risky to come here if you do weird shit like Brexit and tax Education.

I guess we will see but I don't expect it to happen. Many of the surveys only put it at 25% at most. It will translate into small numbers in the end and Labour know it.

People will just have to cut their cloth really like everyone else has had to.

Private schools by their very nature commodify education. I can't see what difference adding VAT makes.

And yes, education is a social good, but private schools are not.

I've seen some suggest 40% but I think that's inflated by pissed off parents whose only hand is to pretend they'll flood the state schools in the same way they intend to flood the application process here.

Yes could be, that hadn't occurred to me tbf.

I think you are right.

x.com/Haggis_UK/status/1798610152792490491

I also moved schools multiple times. And I had far the opposite experience from you.

“And yes, education is a social good, but private schools are not.”

@Shortfatsuit - why exactly are private schools different from other types of schools? Are there alien children and alien teachers there?

What about state grammar and state church schools? Are they not a “social good” either.

Why do you get to decide that is a “social good”?

Some will move, loads will stay. There are lots of spaces in state schools due to falling rolls, so it won’t be the crisis The Telegraph would like it to be. The spaces might just not be at a school right on your doorstep.

Taxing education itself is weird and counterproductive because we need a highly educated population.

Of the country's top doctors, 61% were educated at independent schools, 22% at grammar schools and 16% at comprehensives. It's unlikely that such stark statistics are solely due to old-boy networks and nepotism but may be because selective education is more effective at giving people the skills needed to succeed in medicine. In any case whatever the reason we need lots of doctors and shouldn't be taxing the pipelines that are most successful in creating them.

Obviously the best solution would be to have that level of provision available free to everyone but given that there's already so much grumbling about tax (although our tax rates are lower than those in countries with better education) there doesn't seem to be the will to make that happen for the whole country.

I think it would be best if they found a way to categorise each school's expenditure according to whether it was providing "basic education" or "luxury". No tax on the former and a 50% tax on the latter. Money spent on maths teachers - no tax. Money spent on curating the croquet lawn and polo fields - tax it till they bleed. Total tax take would be about the same as a flat 20% on everything but the more "basic" schools that don't do the luxury end would get squeezed less and Eton etc much more.

I think shifting schools is a huge upheaval. Losing friends, adapting to a new place, new teachers and for the unluckiest, new exam boards is bad enough before you even get to the fact you find yourself in the place your former classmates called the race to the bottom. It's not the preferred option, is it?

Sorry, my point was not clear.

Society needs education but it does not need private schools. Of course, children being educated anywhere is a social good, but there is no social benefit to a small minority of rich kids being educated in a fee paying school. We don't need to support or encourage private education as a benefit to society.

Of course, we should acknowledge that parents using private do save the state a bit of money. However, that benefit is largely cancelled out by the costs of the inequalities that private schools help to perpetuate.