Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

Ok..so how do you know what other people think? If you don't think it but still say it? Also I didn't see anyone else say it on here except you - so how do you know they think it?

You are not helping your argument by calling comprehensive pupils oiks and thugs.

I'm not calling comprehensive pupils oiks and thugs! I don't think that at all!

Read back through the thread. It's a commonly held view, which I strongly oppose.

Plus in NI there is the legacy of the troubles- it suits a lot to not have their kids in school with the kids of paramilitary types. Secondary schools are very much religiously segregated, grammars mixed (except the Catholic ones who don’t have prods but do have lots of Newcomer children 🙄)

Ah, fair enough. I figured that there might be some very specific factors involved, and I totally get why you wouldn't want your kids anywhere near paramilitaries.

I don't think there will be much appetite for it in England either. I was just making a suggestion that would alleviate the behavioural problems associated with comps but avoid the need to segregate pupils at age 11. I don't know much about the NI system but all the NI people I know in England all went to grammar schools

Should say that not all secondaries are over run by the children of paramilitaries but there is obvious sectarianism in some, as a result of more children from families who have experienced significant troubles related trauma and being based in more working class areas.

Yes- many in NI get educated then leave. It is actually known as the Protestant Brain Drain.

Yeah, that makes sense. I do know that the trauma of the Troubles in NI is very unevenly spread, and that you were far more likely to get embroiled in it and affected by it if you lived in a poor working class area.

You'd grasp any lifeline to get out of that.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/protestant-brain-drain-swings-social-balance-in-north/25914905.html

Over 30% of schools in NI are grammars. I think it is 66 grammars (~35k students) vs 127 non-grammars (~85k students). Compared to England, NI offers many more children the opportunity to attend grammar school. 45% vs 5%.

The PM who closed most grammar schools was Margaret Thatcher - I wonder how many people know that?

It wasn't that she wanted to close them. It's just that she was coming up against a lot of pressure from parents who (understandably) were not enjoying the system much. Test pressure at primary level. Middle class parents feeling forced to shell out for private prep schools, or for emergency private secondaries if their child had a bad day when taking the test. Parents whose kids were in secondary moderns and having a shit time.

I was very glad when Theresa May's plans to increase the number of grammar schools fell through. It would have been like Brexit: a nostalgia Boomer Facebook meme that older people buy into because it creates this comforting feeling that the UK is going to go back to the 1950s.... followed by buyer's remorse as parents realize how much worst a system it is for almost everyone.

Is this a bit like Brexit ? you are insulted and offended, you don't think people should feel that way. None of that changes how they feel or what they believe.

Because you won’t let the well of kids go to private school…

The problem is only one UK prime minister went to a comprehensive school. Most were privately educated but a smattering did go to grammar school ( including Mageret Thatcher and Thresa May). Grammar school does apear to be the only way to get people from relatively normal backgrounds into positions of power. Yes it does this at the expense of children who " just miss the mark" having said that in my son's year in Kent there were 2 girls from his primary who transferred in yr 9 and some movement at Sixth form). I know with absolute certainty DS wouldn't have done so well in a comprehensive school, particularly not in the options we had open to us at 10. Would having him in a mixed ability school helped other children to achieve better, I have to accept that is a possibility.

Just googled looks like pur next prime minister is a grammar school boy.

There's barely any grammar schools in NW and most of them are in Trafford! None near me. There are loads in the Southern regions. There seemed to be endless scrolling when I looked on the list for SE, SW and London. It truly is a North South divide.

Maybe you need to see the link again.
DfE data shows non-selective schools in highly selective areas have the lowest attainment. In 2022/23 they had an average Attainment 8 score of 42.3, and Progress 8 of -0.16, which is statistically significantly below the national average.

Grammmar parents like you clearly want to think you are doing the world a favour but the reality is you create a big issue for everyone not able to share in the benefits of your segregation.

You've dodged a bullet.

That's not the doing of the South. Clearly the north stuck to their labour values and closed them all (generalising here)

Yes so the statistics support her comment. The bright kids aren't there acting as TAs and pulling the grades up. You are actually now getting a realistic picture of the attainment standards of the general population there.

Labour like to make the rest of the population live by socialist ideals but the wealthy among them will do anything but. Champagne socialists the lot of them.

Wow - so you actually think grammar schools just show how thick the rest of the population truly are?

I mean I know grammar kids are spoilt and snobbish but I can really see where they get it from now.

Well you think they're great, divide and conquer and all that.

Rich people gaming the system for their own ends and looking down on everyone else for the shit they pile on them.

It's no wonder he thinks he's brilliant enough to run the country, he's been told he is one of the best minds because of the school his parents tutored him into then pretended it was all his "magical ability".

You reap what you sow.

No politician is responsible for the type of school that they attended as a child. You can judge the choices that they make for their own children if you like, but hardly the choices that their parents made for them.

Surely this indicates a problem with the non selective schools rather than the grammars. Some of the following: not enough resources to deal with Sen, bad behaviour? A curriculum that is too academic for some and not enough practical or technical options? These same problems affect comps too but maybe are better hidden by the more able or better supported students. We have an issue of not valuing practical skills or trades in our education system - this isn't going to magically improve by getting rid of the few remaining grammar schools

Also, looking at grades in academic subjects is not necessarily a good indicator of success for non academic pupils. The proportion going on to further qualifications or training after school, and salary level, would be better.