Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

Let's legislate against parents taking time off work to.....parent

@newmummycwharf1 No! Let's legislate to make parents who can afford to do that and afford to pay for tuition be honest and acknowledge that their child got into school based on their parents wealth and legislate to make them be honest that it isn't fair nor equal and their child is in that Grammar school because of hothousing.

Lots of working class people know how to use a library card, and how to get to a library to borrow books for their children. They’re not all lacking in self confidence, and they understand the value of a good education as well as any middle class person, if not more. They’re certainly not all as helpless and downtrodden as you would make them out to be.

Well yes, I am suggesting putting more money to support the bottom end.

Grammar schools don't actively refuse SEN. In fact if the child has an ehcp that states the particular school then that child will be top of the list

Grammar schools are not private and receive the same or less funding per pupil than other state schools.

Parents who live in grammar areas are just trying to do the best for their kids, the same as any parent should.

It's up to the state to provide a good education for every child whether rich or poor. Parents are not the cause of an unequal education system.

I’m not sure if you’re deliberately missing the point here? I’ve already said they do. But nobody on this thread has suggested they don’t deserve their results. Quite a few have suggested it of grammar kids. They deserve them just as much.

@User020345 "They’re certainly not all as helpless and downtrodden as you would make them out to be."

I donMr think working class people are helpless and downtrodden. I do think they have less access to many things than middle class people do.

Could you explain to me why the population of grammar schools is overwhelming middle class?

I am not in favour of charging for grammar schools. I would rather scrap them.

@Moglet4 "I’m not sure if you’re deliberately missing the point here? I’ve already said they do. But nobody on this thread has suggested they don’t deserve their results. Quite a few have suggested it of grammar kids. They deserve them just as much."
Ah, sorry. I may have missed your point because I haven't seen anyone suggest that.

I am prepared to say that any parent who allows 4 hours of homework a night from a "young age" is a bad parent though.

I am prepared to say that any parent who allows 4 hours of homework a night from a "young age" is a bad parent though.

absolutely

Because others don't get in. I posted a link a couple of days ago that shows all the grammar schools that give priority to children from deprived backgrounds. As in they get priority over the middle classes. As in they give places to those with disadvantaged backgrounds who pass the test before they give places to everyone else. Yet they still only make up a tiny percentage of children attending grammar school.

Children from disadvantaged backgrounds pass the test less (which is understandable when it is said poorer children are approx. 10 months behind in education than everyone else). There often isn't the same value put on higher education. There is an attitude of university being for other people. I mean, university is bloody expensive. That alone is enough to put many people off.

If you want to fix the imbalance, you need to tackle the issue from day one. Get children up to speed in primary school. Make higher education attainable for all, not just those who can afford it. And find a way to be a bigger influence on children than their patents, friends and community. Change attitudes. Make the bright ones want to go to a grammar school.

Because nobody else in the school he would have attended did. Because he would have been a "freak" there and either just tried to fit in by masking his ability or been vilified for being different. I think people fail to appreciate how wide the range of ability in the top 20% really is. For a child whose ability in say maths is in the top 1 or 2% they will be bored even in a topset class in a school with a full range of abilities. DS attended a SS he was one of 25 boys ( out of 150 ) who took maths GCSE at the end of year 10, all except 1 got 9s. You can tell me that peer group exists in every comprehensive school- I won't believe you.

@HollyKnight "There is an attitude of university being for other people."

And dividing them at the age of 10 into university and non university is sure going to do a lot to change that attitude!

As do the kids in private school.
Pretending kids in grammar are less privileged is bunkam.
If grammar parents can pay for their niche segregated education that excludes people from all walks of life at age 10, they should have to.

I think you said you lived in Kent? Where there aren't actually any comprehensive schools? Forgive me if I have got that wrong.

My dd had her IQ tested when she was being assessed for ADHD. I had mine tested for the same reason. Both very comfortably within the top 1%. Both of us thrived within the comprehensive system and couldn't have done any better in the grammar. Did other kids think we were freaks? I don't know, maybe, but it certainly didn't hold us back.

Top set at dd's state comp also did a maths GCSE in year 10. There were plenty of 9s within that cohort. Not all, but a very decent number. The difference is, we live in a truly comprehensive area where the grammar schools haven't creamed off the top performing kids.

I wonder how the one poor kid felt who didn't get a 9 in your ds's cohort. Way to make a clever kid feel stupid!

Same reason for the dislike of private school.

I have pm'd you. Don't want to name the other school as potentially identifying. I think there was a general acceptance by everyone that child had been wrongly set and would have done better had he had another year studying the syllabus.

That still has nothing to do with why grammar schools are full of mostly middle-class children.

Primary schools should make sure that no child is behind their peers just because of their economic/social background. If they are all working to the best of their abilities at 10 years old, the bright ones would pass the 11+.

But then you still have to make them want to go to grammar school. To leave their friend. To have their parents support them in going to university.

Do you actually have any experience of proper working-class communities? People who train to be hairdressers and plumbers aren't people who "failed" at school or were "failed" by the education system. Not everyone has academic ambition. There is nothing wrong with just wanting to go to a high school and then into a job.

Other parents and their different attitudes to education, which don't match your own opinion eh? What a bunch of cunts.

@HollyKnight "Primary schools should make sure that no child is behind their peers just because of their economic/social background. If they are all working to the best of their abilities at 10 years old, the bright ones would pass the 11+."

That is absolutely not true. The 11+ is not like SATs- a test of what you should know by the age of X. It might be fairer if it was.

And even if you are the sort of person who wants to be a hairdresser or a plumber, high schools no longer teach trades. And how do you know that at 10 anyway. School should be about opening opportunities, not closing them down.

If they are all working to the best of their abilities at 10 years old, the bright ones would pass the 11+.

This is categorically not true.

I said the bright ones would pass the 11+. The 11+ is about finding which children are working beyond what is expected for their age group. But with children who are held back by their disadvantaged backgrounds or unsupported SEN, their advanced abilities may not be apparent. They should be supported in catching up.

Non-grammars don't close down opportunities. You can still go to university if you go to a comp.

Legislation to mandate honesty. Sounds like a plan!

As I showed earlier in the thread, those with extremely limited funds from other ethnic backgrounds are over-represented in Grammar schools.

Whether comp, Grammar or private - parental responsibility is what makes the most difference in the end.

I actually wish a government will actually ban all types of schools and make them all comps. It will become evident the cultural shift that is required to happen and then we can really have the hard and necessary conversations.

@HollyKnight "I said the bright ones would pass the 11+. The 11+ is about finding which children are working beyond what is expected for their age group."

No, it honestly isn't.

Right, so what's your explanation for why there were so few children from disadvantaged backgrounds in grammar schools even when they are given priority for places over middle-class children?

They aren’t given priority. They get the place when it is between them and another child with the same score. Well that’s how it works in NI. They are ranked from top to bottom and if the final pool of places is oversubscribed FSM is often a criteria. But sometimes it isn’t! Prep goes first generally