Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

"The most common reason for a temporary suspension was persistent disruptive behaviour."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/oct/06/disruptive-behaviour-in-english-schools-worse-since-covid-says-outgoing-ofsted-head

Why should kids who actually want to learn have their education sabotaged by this? (And yes I do think all kids who want to learn should have the opportunity to do so away from this.)

Why should already well-off parents get an elitist education funded by the state that condemns even more kids to crap outcomes?

Why insulting? It's a fact that some kids misbehaving drags things down for everyone else. Behaviour is a massive problem in schools. My experience is not recent but I went to a mediocre comp and frequently teachers were locked in cupboards, picked on until they cried, had things thrown at them, were spat at, sworn at, had lewd remarks made to them. This did, obviously, impede learning and teaching. Some teachers were better at keeping order than others of course, but having to keep a very tight rein on classes through silence, seating plans etc didn't allow for interesting lessons. No one wanted to be seen to know the answer or put in any effort as you'd be immediately marked out as a swot.

The misbehaving pupils were definitely not the stupidest or poorest - most of them were just hormonal teenagers trying to impress the opposite sex in an environment that didn't value education.

Honestly that sounds like inverse snobbery to me. Maybe grammar schools have changed since your time but my kids' schools aren't filled with 'well-off middle class parents'. One of my daughter's closest friends is a first generation immigrant from India whose mother has no English and father works two jobs, including driving a taxi at night. And as for 'disgustingly selfish and greedy reasons' - I don't blame anyone for being selfish when it comes to their kids and the opportunities they can access for them. I pay my taxes, and our grammars don't have better facilities than the comps - in fact I'd say they're generally quite shabby and run down. No fabulous facilities - certainly nothing compared to the shiny new comp locally. What they have is cohorts of like-minded kids who want to learn and who value academia, and what they don't have is groups of educational detractors taking the teachers' time and focus.

They're not 'already well off' though. That's a myth. And 'the state' is the parents who pay their taxes - we are all funding our kids' education. And where's the evidence that grammar schools 'condemns even more kids to crap outcomes'. Surely without having to teach the most academic kids, other schools have more time to focus on the kids who aren't as academic, and can teach them more appropriately?

Northern Ireland has a grammar school system. So the results in non grammar schools will be lower. I am talking about getting rid of grammar schools and instead increasing the number of places in pupil referral units

The overall educational outcomes for the vast majority of pupils in grammar school areas are lower than they are in comprehensive areas. Grammar schools don't even work!

I really loathe the idea that everyone at a grammar is a motivated little darling and everyone at a comp or sec mod is a little thug who deserves a shit education. Because ultimately that's what a lot of you are saying.

And there's no way the state should be funding that sort of inequality.

Fair enough - that's your opinion. With language like 'darlings' and 'thugs' you clearly feel very emotive about it.

But I'm delighted my kids are thriving at grammar school and will go on thinking that it's a wonderful thing they exist and wishing that more of the academic kids could access a streamed education. And also wishing that there was a way to create much, much more of a culture in the UK of a) Respect for education and ambition to succeed and b) High behavioural expectations in kids from their parents.

Access to grammar schools is strongly graded by family background.
Children from the poorest families are substantially less likely to attain a place even when they have high academic achievement at age 11. Read more HERE.
Grammar schools benefit the very affluent
Research for the UCL Social Research Institute, University College London found that access to grammar schools is highly skewed by a child’s socioeconomic status (SES) with the most deprived families living in grammar school areas standing only a 6% chance of attending a selective school. In contrast the most affluent families – the top 10% by SES – have a 50% or better chance of attending a grammar. While those pupils at the very top – the 1% most affluent – have an 80% chance of attending a grammar. Read an article summarising the research HERE or the full paper HERE.

The problem is that grammar schools do work. In the same way that top sets in nice comprehensives work. Fairness is impossible in current systems with the different types of schools. Alongside all the admission criteria.
The real issue is disruptive behaviour and an outdated curriculum. Neither of which will change just by closing grammar schools.
What will happen is those parents who can afford it will move into the catchment area of 'good' schools and I can guarantee you that the FSM figures will look exactly the same.

DfE data shows non-selective schools in highly selective areas have the lowest attainment. In 2022/23 they had an average Attainment 8 score of 42.3, and Progress 8 of -0.16, which is statistically significantly below the national average. If that's not condemning them I don't know what is.

No, what I'm saying is that is it's behaviour in schools that should be the focus. It's not unintelligent children who stop clever children reaching their potential, it's teachers being stopped from teaching because they are having to deal with behavioural problems all the time. I don't agree with separating children at age 11 based on a single test or based on intelligence or parental involvement or finances.

I don't know what you mean by oik or naice in this context. My children are part of the 90% of kids who will be attending normal comprehensive schools as I did myself. Does that make us oiks or naice??? Presumably as the product of a grammar school you think we are oiks

No one is saying that children in comps are thugs. No one is saying that any child deserves a shit education. You're the one who keeps saying any child that doesn't get into grammar has to go to a poorly performing school, which simply is not the case

Your massive chip on your shoulder is obviously due to your parents and not your schooling - one bad experience at one grammar school is not informative about comprehensive schools

@PrincessTeaSet No, that's the whole point - I don't think I'm better than everyone else because I went to a grammar school. I hated every minute of it, and thought the system was grossly unfair. I didn't have any choice in where I went anyway, my parents insisted I went there and ignored the obvious misery it was causing me.

My kids went to a comprehensive where they did very well.

I do think poor discipline is a problem, but a lot of people have this rather simplistic view that grammars are all sweetness and light, and comps are hellholes. The truth is somewhat more complex, of course, and more grammars aren't the answer.

But there's a lot of evidence that grammar schools damage a lot of people. I'd suggest a look at the Comprehensive Future website.

Oh, and yeah, a lot of people are saying kids in comps are thugs.

Of course they do - because the cleverest kids in the area are at the selective schools. That doesn't actually tell us anything except that we are measuring non-academic or lower-ability kids by the same standards as the high ability kids.

Hmm. Do you also agree it's rather simplistic to try and pigeonhole every child as either naice or an oik?

I was making the point that by creating selection in schools you disadvantage the already disadvantaged kids even further.

The choices in selective school areas are either the selective school or a significantly worse than average one, as my previous post confirmed.
You doom them to this by creating segregation.

No, people have said there are discipline problems in schools, or that some pupils are badly behaved. No one except you has said or implied that all kids in comps are thugs, thickos, oiks or whatever other unpleasant terms you used.

I don't know why you are banging your grammar school drum at me - I am not in favour of grammar schools. As I have said at least twice

But it doesn't make that point? It doesn't actually show that the other kids are disadvantaged further, just that the more academic kids aren't raising the school's scores.

Yes, it's massively simplistic. It isn't what I think, but a lot of people do.

There is no appetite to get rid on grammars in NI. Sinn Fein tried and made an even bigger balls up as it is now managed by the schools themselves rather than the department of education.

Does that have anything to do with the very high level of social conservatism in NI?

No! It is because the middle classes are getting basically the same as private schooling for very little cost! NI grammars are phenomenal. Have a look at the results. If you get in your are on to a winner. There was uproar when the Shinners tried to abolish - even from some of their core electorate as the Catholic grammars top the league tables!