Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

That's not what I said, but if it makes you feel better to think that then go ahead. I see those statistics as not being anti-grammar more the rest of the education system is failing the majority of children and the comprehensive system has clearly relied on this cohort of children to prop up the schooling of others. I suspect most parents don't want their children to be used as a sacrificial lamb to help bring up the grades of others.

It's a clear indication of a problem if the 90% of the population who were comprehensive educated don't contribute to politics at the elite level.

That's part of the hidden curriculum of grammars and private schools. They do instill the quiet confidence students need to go into senior leadership roles, why is that a bad thing? We need good leaders. You may not realise it but you're arguing a good case to keep grammar schools.

Funny how they are over run with SEN when schools in their area actively refuse to school them, isn't it?

Imagine spreading that load on the tax payer's money, like other areas do. Might help, do you think?

They're so close to understanding yet missing the mark by miles...

How on earth can you know "with certainty" that your child wouldn't have done so well in a comprehensive school?

What is it about your ds that would have made him so incapable of performing as well as many other comprehensive kids do? There are plenty of kids in mixed ability schools who come out with straight 9s/A*s etc. Why would he have been unable to achieve this?

Because grammars are a form of SEN school. They are SEN for highly intelligent children, who have as much right to a tailored education as the sporty kids or the musicians or those with a learning disability. Intelligence is really discouraged in the country for who knows what reason.

Presumably because they know their child's character and when looking round school felt the grammar the better fit.

Grammar schools need to stop pretending they are not private.
They are selective on wealth.
Their parents need to pay for the system they game to keep their kids segregated, which they will because they love the moral high ground.
Taxing private schools and not charging for grammar is innately wrong. Both schools are luxuries segregated by wealth.
Wealthy families in grammar schools pretend their ideologies are purer when they are literally taking from the state yearly to provide the same schooling environment for their children. They need to pay back into the pot for the poorer in their societies rather than pretending they are not a huge part of the problem in these areas.

Do you actually read the posts or just spout unfounded accusations based on personal bias?

40 seconds it took you to read and post that on my post.
You're a troll.
Not engaging any more.

Yes, presumably. I'm just curious as to what exactly could be lacking in a child's character that would make them capable of performing very highly in one environment but definitely incapable of doing so in another. Having seen a wide range of different children excelling within the comprehensive system, I can't work out what kind of character traits would render this impossible.

Not a troll just someone who can read and comprehend things at speed. It's a useful skill.

Grammars are typically smaller and have a larger cohort of children with ND. Equally a number, as has been said by many posters on here, are not particularly culturally diverse in areas where the majority population are not of the same demographic, so it may be a bit of 'tribalism' at play too - wanting their child to be among their community. It may be their child is very musical and the local grammar is a specialist music centre. Or may love languages and the school specialises in those...

I really dislike grammar schools but have no contempt for the kids attending or their parents. All schools should be available to all kids. High achievers should be catered for in all schools.

Separating kids at 11/12 is obviously ridiculous.

Wasn't my comment, but pretty obviously the meaning was it shows the standard of the schooling rather than anything about the pupils' inherent abilities.

For the billionth time - it is not "inherent abilities" it is wealth.
Tarquin is likely no more inherently bright as a baby than Taylor. Wealth divides them increasingly as they get older. Grammar children are not magically bright they are trained by wealth.
Grammar parents need to stop thinking they are doing something different to private school parents. Your child isn't magic, he's rich.

OK, so those perceptions might help to explain parental preferences for a particular type of school, but none of it explains how the pp could know "with absolute certainty" that her dc couldn't have done as well in a comprehensive school. And that is what I was asking about. There are plenty of ND children who do excel in comprehensive schools, and plenty from ethnic minorities etc as well.

As for specialising in music, languages etc... that's a separate matter as comprehensive schools can also specialise in particular areas. It doesn't have anything to do with selective education.

That’s an interesting way of putting it and I’m inclined to agree. A very significant portion of these kids are neurodivergent (mainly autistic, what would have been called Asperger’s in the days of the DSM-4). I’ve spoken to SENCOs at two different grammars who have said that for every child on roll who has an autism diagnosis, there is at least one who doesn’t.

My daughter’s needs were almost entirely ignored at her primary school (they wouldn’t even have her on the SEN register on the grounds that her academic achievements were above average) but as soon as she walked into grammar school the support was there. There is no doubt in my mind that this would not have happened at the local high school, who have much bigger fish to fry in terms of SEN, learning and behavioural needs.

Grammar school does feel like a kind of SEN school for us.

On that point I agree with you. No one can know with any degree of certainty their child will thrive in any school. Nothing in the world of parenting is a given and it you're 100% certain of something like schooling without consulting the child then id agree with the many posts saying pushy parents are the problem.

Grammar schools are far less likely to admit SEND pupils than non-selective schools, with just 0.3 per cent of statemented pupils in grammar schools (compared to 2 per cent in non-selective schools in selective areas) and 4.3 per cent of SEND pupils without statements (compared to 15.5 per cent at non-selective schools in selective areas).

But that’s the point. They don’t NEED 3-4 hrs hw a night but that’s the amount of time they spend because of the amount of effort that they put into it

Because, as a pp has pointed out, schools don't assess children who are no bother behaviourally and achieving or exceeding expectations.

Equally grammar schools are specialist schoolw not mainstream education so of course the statistics are going to be skewed.

So they're magic SEN children now too!
Remarkable.