Orange marches belfast

[Pippin24]

I’m visiting Belfast today to see extended family. My dad’s family are from Ireland/n Ireland I try to get over a few times per year. I’m in my aunts house and we had planned a picnic in the garden which has steadily been interrupted by orange bands marching up a down a road not far from her. It’s a terrible noise and apart from the assault to the ears seems entirely pointless- I cannot believe in this day and age this is still happening.

it’s a mixed area faith wise and my aunt is so embarrassed about it. My husband has just arrived back from a walk where he managed to see some of the march and has informed me that there are a shit ton of the marchers drinking - singing anti catholic/Irish songs and generally behaving badly. Surely there are rules around this? Grown men with younger kids marching drunk and causing a disturbance. Culture is one thing - this isn’t it. Rant over!

The parades that are allowed to sing anti Catholic songs should be banned as a hate crime. But how can that make sense when what they are celebrating is the victory of William of Orange, an imported king against the rightful King James who was opposed on the basis that he was Catholic.

And as for the bonfires ! From a sheer safety point of view they should no longer be allowed never mind the custom of burning effigys of a Pope.

But to say that they should just be illegal is to not understand the complexity of the history of NI . Forcing that segment of Ulster Protestant society would make them feel further disenfranchised. Their way of life is being eroded no longer relevant and politically without representation. Holding on tightly for what little tradition that make them feel important . Hopefully this type of ignorance will be phased out .

As for the flags , pavement painting , it is childish and yet intimidating. I was so ashamed and embarrassed having to take European visitors to Bushmills . They had expected to see a town proud of its world famous whiskey product . Approaching all that was visible was the Union Jack bunting symbolising an allegiance to England. Shameful.

I get that we are talking about sectarianism here, but this thread makes me really proud what we are achieving in Northern Ireland and why the GFA has stuck. The local posters are, for the most part, acknowledging that they are willing to tolerate things on both sides that they don't really agree with for the sake of the greater good. There's also the pragmatic recognition that we can't solve decades (centuries?) worth of conflict in a matter of years and that it might take generations to really be settled.

I get that banning parades
probably seems like a quick win, but there are very complicated reasons why this might be counter productive. I think the more sensible next step would be more work on growing integrated education. All the signs suggest the population is broadly in favour of this and would like to see far more provision of this type of schooling so it feels like a far more viable progression.

You must admit that there's a small minority who think it a great idea to burn the Irish flag or images of politicians etc. A picture of the former Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar was burnt last year, wasn't it? It made the news.

I mean, obviously it's a small minority of thuggish behaviour but it's disingenuous to suggest these events are nothing but happy families, even if that is the intention of many.

Unfortunately it's the bad bits that make the news.

I'm not sure how that came about, I must look into it.

A picture of the former Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar was burnt last year, wasn't it? It made the news.

At the 12th parade, or at some bonfire on the "11th night"?

I'm inclined to think it was a bonfire - because the 12th parades are morning & afternoon marches with tea/lunch, fairly family oriented and generally pretty civilised.

Whereas the bonfires are a rowdy, drinking, rough, night time affair that even unionists often don't like their kids or teenagers going to. And there's a habit of putting symbolic stuff on top of them.to burn.

I went out with a Catholic guy for a while (well I've been out with loads of Catholic guys lol) but this one was very curious about the parades and had never been to one, I was the first protestant he'd dated and he asked me if I'd take him to the 12th to see what it was like. He hadn't felt comfortable going on his own.

(I hadn't been to one for years myself. My only interaction with them was having to walk through them if I was called to work while on call, because it was on my route).

His main conclusion was that it was not like he expected at all, in that it seemed to be primarily a family day out; with everyone from kids to grannies (usually parked on camping chairs) attending and a carnival type atmosphere.

And funnily, given the mention of the Scottish orders & bands ITT, he was most impressed of all the bands with a Glasgow band who came over for the parade (were immaculate and v well synchronised).

It’s great summer that your experience has been a positive one but if there are yearly Complaints made about very sectarian terminology at parades/marches to the parades commission.

The one highlighted most in recent years was an orange band playing the famine song outside st Patrick’s chapel in Belfast. They played this song and circled around and around outside the chapel while their supporters hurled abuse at the local Parish priest. This I understand stemmed from the parades commission curtailing a march in some way. How is that culture? Same as a republican march spouting hated. Both wrong. Surely you are aware that there is sectarianism involved in any sort of marches like this.

as for the OP - she could be living anywhere and from.also she doesn’t need to know the history of a place she is visiting to object to something she has expert in it. She has a right to free speech without being attacked- tbh the response she got here feeds into the narrative that NI is aggressive.

I’m so sorry all - I still have not located my glasses - I’m getting nervous about them mow tbh - I’d say my spelling is terrible not to mention the use of wrong words as I’m relying on predictive text 🤦‍♀️😂

She has a right to free speech

Everyone has, but if your "speech" demonstrates a great deal of ignorance and simplistic thinking, it's inevitable that it will be challenged.

the response she got here feeds into the narrative that NI is aggressive.

I actually think posters have not been aggressive.

And what on earth does "NI is aggressive" mean? The country, lol? Everyone in it?

If by "aggressive" you mean that it is a troubled, deeply divided society - pretty much entirely due to the legacy of English colonisation - that might be a better and less prejudiced way of expressing that.

I just don’t get it. They’re all Christian’s fighting among themselves. What is the actual point in all of it.

How is that culture?

What percentage of all the activities of the Orange Order, Black Preceptory, Apprentice Boys, marching bands etc etc does behaviour like that make up?

You're tarring everyone with the behaviour of the few/the very worst.

During the city of culture in Derry/Londonderry, the Fleagh (Irish music festival; and a very "Irish" affair indeed) was held in the city, the first time in NI, and a unionist band agreed to play in it.

But things like that somehow never get reported.

Religion is never the true motivation behind conflicts; it's always land, resources and power.

I would also like to point out that the 12th is a commemoration of a conflict that only happened because English kings/former Kings decided to play out their battle for the throne of England (and Scotland I suppose) in Ireland (having colonised the place for a few hundred years) and drag everybody else - including the poor fuckers who actually had to do the fighting - into it.
The apprentice boys of Derry parade also exists for the same reason.

Having had a brief look, it looks like it harks back to the things like the "Plantation of Ulster", under Elizabeth 1, which may have been a misnomer (maybe it was the plantation of the rest of Ulster).

And also perhaps that the Unionists originally hoped to include all of the Ulster counties in Northern Ireland, but ended up not doing so due to majorities in the three that ended up in Ireland.

There's a great deal of both confusion and political manoeuvring behind how people refer to everything, when you start reading about it.

As to it being a Gaelic term, every place name - bar a few introduced through colonisation - in Ireland is Gaelic. And remains Gaelic. So ...

(And if we want to be pedantic, most unionists in NI are Ulster Scots, and the Scots also spoke Gaelic (Scots Gaelic rather than Irish Gaelic, obviously) before they were colonised too).

They had expected to see a town proud of its world famous whiskey product . Approaching all that was visible was the Union Jack bunting symbolising an allegiance to England. Shameful

What is shameful is your ignorance; the whiskey industry only exists there because it was established by English & Scottish planters.

Places that are part of the plantations will obviously often have a long history of allegiance to the state that "planted" them there.

Bloody hell - that Bushmills comment is a whole other level of ignorance! Shameful

I hate all this sectarianism rubbish. March and have parades all u want but neither side should be saying anything bad about the other. We are all one regardless of religion and if a different country tried to attack us or invade we would fight together not as two halves. I wish for the sake of the younger generation we just learn to accept everyone and embrace its sad to see young kids being dragged into it feels like it will never end :( recently I overheard a conversation about how a guy liked a girl but he couldn't date her because she wasn't the same religion as him. Love is love.

I checked and you're right, it was actually at a bonfire a few days before, part of the lead up to the 12th.
But does that matter really?
Whether it's the 12th or the run up?

I agree with others that it's not as simple as OP thinks to stop the marches but they do paint unionism in a bad light from where I'm standing. There's no denying that.

Time is the thing that will help most I hope.

They did consider naming the six counties Ulster instead of the long handle they eventually settled on, which came from the idea to name one part of the partitioned country Southern Ireland and the other Northern Ireland.

Don't get your hopes up they'll ever stop calling it Ulster. When the DUP deputy leader Peter Robinson and a gang of masked loyalists invaded the village of Clontibret in County Monaghan ostensibly against the Anglo-Irish agreement 'He had been held in custody for 32 hours, the report [of the NIO] added, during which time “he refused all sustenance provided by the gardaí, preferring the wholesome Ulster food brought to him by his wife”.'

In case anyone doesn't know, Monaghan is not in Northern Ireland but is one of the nine counties of Ulster, six of which comprise Northern lreland.

I stand by my Bushmills comment. It is simplistic to state that it only exists because of English / Scottish . Plantation in NI is the whole crux of the matter isn't it ? Placed there by England to populate the country with Protestantism , RE placing the indigenous Catholic people .
And Union Jack bunting , flags and pavements are not there to celebrate the Britishness of Bushmills whiskey is it ? Having driven through Larne with its " colourful" decorations it is obvious to visitors that this town of Bushmills is also emphasising its Protestant persuasion .

It's not called Southern Ireland.

@Abitofalark didn't say it is.

She said there was an idea to name one part of the country Southern Ireland and one part Northern Ireland.
And there was.
Southern Ireland did exist from 1921-22.
Which is actually part of the reason people dislike the term being used today for Ireland/ROI.

Well, that’s your own ignorance about the issues involved, surely.

Agreed. It's not like theý're fighting about whether transubstantiation is a thing or not! It's not about religion. Religion is a marker.

Many people from the UK incorrectly call it Southern Ireland.

It is Ireland and Northern Ireland.