To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

@Uplift in what way do grammar schools not produce same inequality. I looked at data the other day for 2 schools in the same town, a grammar and a state secondary. One had 5% free school meal children, the other 27%. Work out which school was which

Our school's reception intake was 25 percent down this year. They dropped a whole class! It's mortgage rates going up etc..... I'd imagine. Plus job market is rubbish ime so those big pay increases aren't there.

I think you misunderstand my point of view.
Im very much against this policy, it’s designed to capture headlines not deliver any change.

I just dispute, (based off conversations with friends and family, Whatsap groups etc) the figure that 26% of children will be withdrawn from independent schools due to fee rises.

Is this a private school?

It’s written as if it is but surely you can see a likely VAT tax is a factor

@daliesque what are they going to spend the money on? More teachers, how? Teacher training courses aren’t turning people away as too many applicants, targets for teacher training applicants are being missed year on year for pretty much every subject

Agree on your first point but I think talking to friends and family is an even harder way than a survey to get a feel for overall numbers

@Uplift grammar school do have an impact it's one of the arguments for abolishing them. Why do you want to drag down good kids to sink schools (which will always exist) just to level down? Why should well behaved kids be forced into schools with those who don't want to be there? Our school accepts charitable donations and has an active PTA that purchases a lot from donations for the school, would you like to stop that aswel seen as most of the parents are middle or upper middle class so it's not fair on little Macy in the sink school a couple of miles away? DH went to a state school his lads friendship group is comprised of doctors, engineers, pilots and scientists but that state school is also outstanding. Should the kids who normally get a place there (house price selection) also be split amongst the sink schools?

Yes many people can afford the raise but sadly many people can’t and have already cut back on holidays and expenses to send their kids to private in the first instance. Where are they going to magic up an extra 20% in fees?

The policy only benefits the ultra wealthy. I agree state education needs improving for all those arguing that the funds should divert to this but this should NOT be at a detriment to the private sector. I am sure the govt if they really wanted to, can find funds to fund the state sector somewhere - maybe it’s time for the government to cut back on spending rather than trying to increase revenues via poor policy that have no benefit and will cost in the long run.

What are you talking about it’s the privately educated that are over represented in the top unis and jobs.

The reason for abolishing grammars is because of the detrimental impact has on all kids.

Interesting that you think only those in grammar and private schools are “ well behaved” and “good”.Says it all really.

It won’t raise more money.

Elite private schools will be fine, the very wealthy will suck it up and continue to send their kids.

Everyone seems to be focusing on whether parents will pull their kids out of private school now. Many would feel unable to do that and will keep their kids there by stretching themselves further. Many will have no choice but to switch. The immediate expected effect may be overstated, but the real impact will be in the longer term where people who would be stretching to afford fees now are priced out of the market when it comes to putting their kids IN. Reduced intake will mean many lower level private schools will simply fail because they won’t be viable and the proportion of kids in state school will rise, costing the state more, and the amount of VAT delivered by the surviving schools will go nowhere near covering the cost of educating them in state. Not to mention all the SEN children who will end up in the state sector, struggling and needing additional funding, or the bursary pupils, who just won’t be admitted to private schools because they can’t afford to subsidise them, or simply aren’t there.

Financially it is nuts and it won’t do anything to improve state education or narrow the wealth divide. Those who would have used private school will continue to buy houses in the right catchment and pay for tutors and expensive extra curricular activities.

The big unspoken in all of this is that there are families that just don't care about education. Their kids are normally badly behaved and are incredibly disruptive in the classroom. I know because I was at school with a reasonable number of these kids. They have had kids of their own now and are raising them in much the same one. Spending money on teachers, books and equipments won't solve this problem.

Pretending we can solve inequality with money is a red herring. The issue is often cultural and has been ingrained over many generations. It is incredibly hard to effectively educate and 'level up' those who have absolutely no interest in doing this. Private schools and VAT increases are all just a distraction from this as Labour know they can't fix this problem anymore than any other government has been able to.

I'm not so sure tbh.

They're saying as many as 4/10 will move to state. That means potentially 40% of the kids currently in the private sector will be costing the gov an extra £7k per term, whilst the remaining 60% pay only a fraction of £7k in increased fees - defo not enough to cover the 40%.

Now of course the 4/10 may be an exaggeration as it's probs not in people's interests to broadcast that they can afford the increase, but anecdotally I know quite a lot of people who can only just about afford private schooling. My sister is one of them and she defo won't be able to afford the increase.

If 40% of children in private schools in Edinburgh moved to state that would be the equivalent of 3 new secondaries and 11 new primaries being required.

My best prediction is that it will mainly be the smaller, cheaper private schools catering mainly to the middle-middle classes that will suffer, and mainly from low intakes rather than student withdrawals. So, a slow fallout over 5 or so years rather than an overnight exodus.

The number of students enrolled in state education is predicted to fall steadily over the next 6 years, so I expect that Labour are counting on this to accommodate the extra students.

Of course the reality of this will be that the areas experiencing the drops in state school enrolments are likely to be outside of the areas where the middle-middles are most likely to be paying for private education.

I have said this on another thread, but I hope they consider rolling out a fast track route for schools wishing to convert to free schools/academies.

I agree- to the poster that called it a ‘tiny increase’… I have two at independent which is just under 50k each per year… 25% of that really isn’t a tiny increase for us. Luckily our first child left last year but we are funding university now.
I am not expecting anyone’s heart to bleed for us, but I don’t know any parents who aren’t worried about this increase and the implications for the school.

I agree. One of the Labour pledges says "recruit worldclass teachers" but the teachers I know in state are fabulous - but they are struggling to teach because of disruptive horrific behaviour. And most of them want to quit because it's so awful. That's what needs fixing.

You’re paying £100k a year on education and you expect us to call you the squeezed middle.😂

I have never in my life referred to myself as such.

I have never in my life referred to myself as such.

No what needs fixing is the shite curriculum, Ofsted and pressures alongside support with MH and SEN. Tories have caused it all and done nothing. A labour government sorting these things (which will come)will help with teacher recruitment.

Even if school numbers do drop over the next few years and this is not offset by immigration, the extra pupils who would previously have gone to a private school are still an additional cost.

I was educated under a Labour government and can tell you that they absolutely did not sort out the behavioural issues we experienced in my school. Kids throwing chairs at teachers etc. If you think this isn't still a reality in schools today then you are kidding yourself. You can reform OFSTED and tweak the curriculum all you want but very few talented and able people would willingly work in an environment with kids behaving like this. The problem extends way beyond the school setting and even education and needs to be tackled properly. Pumping money into these schools is just a waste of time unless you sort out the underlying problems.

I agree these things need fixing (and I'm a life long labour voter so I definitely agree tories have caused this). However, the physical and verbal abuse from primary school aged kids and their parents just can't continue and is what my teacher friends are struggling with locally.

We don’t need to wait until after the election to see how Labour will sort education:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67616536#:~:text=Wales%20is%20ranked%20just%20above,fell%20from%20483%20to%20466.

The issue with this, and frankly with the nhs being “available for all”, is that these systems are fundamentally flawed and can’t deal with the systems they have in place. If there were no private schools or private hospitals tomorrow, we would be fucked. We need people to relieve the burden on the state by using the private services. Penalising them for doing so just isn’t the way.

it’s also just so stupid - it means more people flooding the struggling system whilst the very richest people get the best. It’s lose/lose