To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

Many people haven't allowed a cushion of a 28% rise, happening potentially this September. Which is what mine will be with the normal 8% (which we've budgeted for) plus 20% VAT.

A normal rise of 8% plus 20% VAT would give a total rise of 29.6% - there will be VAT payable on the 8% increase too.

@ageratum1 does your school charge for use? I assume private schools will be giving for free or discounted rate. Not many state schools can afford to run pools nowadays. Two schools local to me had swimming pools which they can no longer afford to run, so they are sitting there empty as they can’t afford to demolish them either!

Ours will be more for senior. £22k per year currently. We plan to take £60k out of the house to cover half of the costs. Yes, that’s our choice and it will mean that we retire later but there are plenty of families at my DC’s school who are not on mega incomes.

There’s a private school near me. I’ve been there a few times. I actually have never been anywhere so pristine in my entire life, literally there isn’t a leaf out of place.
The car park was full of luxury vehicles etc. I felt like I had stepped into another world.

In the catchment near where most of these parents live there is a good secondary and if you don’t get into that / there are some terrible schools and I mean TERRIBLE, blacklisted by supply agencies schools. If parents pull their children out guaranteed they will run back and pay the increase.
I imagine now way will most of these parents put up with the shitty schools most people have to.

The main issue with SEN is not about parents paying school fees of those with SEN (though some do), it is because the fees of most at independent specialist schools are paid by councils. These schools can cost in excess of £100,000 per annum per pupil so VAT will add hundreds of thousands of pounds to council education budgets. And saying ‘those with EHCPs are exempt’ doesn’t work because EHCPs don’t exist in Scotland and there is not a comparable alternative (CSPs are not comparable)

Realistically no-one knows how many children will leave private schools for state schools.
The one study that was done was by an independent schools group so it likely prone to bias.

I suspect children actually leaving private schools for state schools will be relatively rare. Parents will probably choose to forgo holidays/eating out to avoid the disruption of a school change. However it might have a greater impact on children starting at private schools, because parents considering it may choose state schools instead.

Don't you ever get tired of trotting out the same tired trite cliches?

I imagine now way will most of these parents put up with the shitty schools most people have to.

The most likely outcome is those that would have used the private school will move to the catchment of the nice school - they can afford it. So some who would have previously got in will be denied a place and forced into the shitty schools.
The majority of those already in the private school will find the money until their child reaches a transition point.

The survey results were from asking parents

People will likely move at natural breaks but the overall impact is similar

@frankentall so what do you think this policy is about?

@GOTBrienne and what is Labour saying they will do about these shitty schools - nothing! Why are we not seeing post after post about this?

As a pp mentioned, they usually make huge amounts of money in the UK (think large annual salaries, bonuses, etc).

their non-dom status has meant that foreign income not taken into the U.K. (including inheritance) not has been taxed.

total tax intake is reduced massively if many leaves. They are also quite cheap to “host” for a country as they don’t cost that much in public service cost (private schools and private healthcare).

We pay £1100pm, which includes everything except uniform and optional trips., we earn well but aren't super rich, we can absorb an increase and from what The Head has said the school will absorb some and pass some on.
Most DC and Parents are pretty ordinary, the very rich families are the exception rather than the rule.
I appreciate that even this isn't afffordable for most people though

Yes, I suspect the parents will have given answers that they knew would generate headlines that might negatively impact the policy.

I haven’t seen the wording of the questions, but I’ve answered surveys myself in a not entirely honest way because I wanted it to generate a certain result and a headline.

I think most parents don’t know if they will be able to afford the increased fees at the moment. No-one knows what the increases will actually be at the moment and how inflation/mortgages/energy prices will be in September.

I agree with you. This is not about raising money but the politics of envy.

Not entirely sure id describe wanting to improve the chances of the 94% of children in this country politics of envy, but nice soundbite I guess.

No kids so no skin in the game here, but am state educated and in a profession where a posh accent and old school tie still give you an advantage. I've had to work longer and harder to get where I am, but at least I know I did it because of talent and nit because daddy (it's always daddy) knows the CEO of the hospital.

Well that’s a bit of a punt for a policy that will damage education

That you think people answer surveys for headlines and all will be rosy

It's crap policy and dog whistle politics. The sad thing is the losers will be poorer kids. Labour would be much better placed tackling the rampant inequality in the state system. One idea I have is that you can force state schools to change their catchment wherever possible so that there are more 'even' catchments. I don't think the middle classes would support this but it is a way of making sure that schools have a more balanced profile of students.

@daliesque so how do you think this policy will help those 94% of children? The smaller private schools don’t have the same influence on who you know, and those schools are the ones that are going to be most impacted by this policy. The Etons of this world will carry on as pretty much normal

But how are they going to improve the chances of 94%. Funnily enough, they’ve missed that part out entirely and refused to even guarantee to ring fence income (if any!) from this policy

FWIW this is doing nothing to stop those who get the top jobs because of their parents’ contacts - they have the money to continue to pay fees with VAT and will happily do so

So how does this policy fix this?

The people who got jobs via nepotism will still get the jobs via nepotism. They will still have posh accents.

and if all the private schools closed tomorrow, there would be still grammar schools and schools that the financially elite send their kids to. So old school ties will just be a different colour

Presumably a better reason to move to ss for 6th is to have > 5 people in the class? I think it would be pretty scary to turn up at uni if all you’ve known is tiny classes in a sheltered environment. Chuck them in a college line Farnborough 6th where you have > 4000 young people, that’s a better preparation for life.

Regarding the maths - many private schools know the affordability of their fees and won’t pass on an increase of 20% (won’t need to, as they will be able to reclaim some VAT on purchases).

Some policies are political in nature, this may be one of them. It doesn’t have to generate large positive flows for the Treasury for it to be ideologically preferable and politically popular.

Except grammar schools
dont seem to cause the same inequality that private education does.

Locally a long standing private school has closed due to knowing they will not be able to afford to stay open once Labour are in. It isn’t a very expensive private. Hundreds of children have been affected from 2-18. There are not enough spaces at the other schools in the town and it has caused massive problems. Parents with more than one child are struggling in particular to make any plans which are reasonable logistically. Staff lost their jobs. Local businesses affected who supplied the school and used the grounds.

I suggest you read what the Labour Party say they are going to spend the money on. But I'm just here for the bingo and the frothing.

The main reason those schools are shitty is the Tory government I have to believe there will be some improvement. They’re total disregard for the north has been obvious.

Those parents would have to move out of the area completely for a better school, the school near them is by far the best in the area. I think they would still struggle with the massive difference though.

Including your bingo post with ‘frothing’