To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

I’m actually horrified by this attitude, particularly on a thread like this! One of the reasons a lot of NQTs are of a poor standard now is that they think it’s absolutely fine to go into teaching with a subject specialist degree. They quickly find they’re floundering and are confused as to why they’re not given A- Level classes.

Haha that should say ‘without’

I wondered what the issue was with having specialist subject degrees…

The reason VAT isn’t applied to education in any country is because it is recognised that it provides societal benefit. The suggestion that it be applied to private schools comes down to thinking private school pupils get more benefit than state school pupils and therefore their education is a personal luxury. This changes education from being considered as something society benefits from to something individuals benefit from. As soon as you consider it just this way you are no longer thinking ‘it is good to train more doctors/specialist teachers/lawyers’ and start with ‘if you train to be a doctor you will have a bigger income so it is a benefit for you that we can tax’.

I think the his is the next logical step actually.

anything which isn’t required is actually a luxury- and once education is potentially a luxury, why not?

Specialist teachers are good - but only a certain amount. Maybe they should also be locked it for teaching for a certain amount of years in order for the necessary lack of luxury provision to be realise (and lack of VAT) should be realised?

It's not had much mention in the Mumsnet threads, but they tried adding VAT to school fees in Greece in 2015. It ended badly and was reversed.

Greece reconsiders a tax on private education (economist.com)

Interesting read, consequence was pretty much exactly what so many of us have been saying on this and many other threads only to be shot down.

Of course Labour are aware of this but creating a policy out of spite to win votes still seems to be their priority.

I think this is the key point in favour of applying VAT to private schools. I've got DC at private school and it will hit us hard and from a selfish point of view I hope it doesn't happen - but there is merit in the point which TeenLifeMum makes here.

I don't think it will raise any money for state schools, and I think it will end up costing the government in the long run - but I don't think there's much arguing against the point TeenLifeMum is making. Although I send my DC to private school, I do feel uncomfortable about the effect private schools have in terms of social segregation.

I went to a state school and the real problem is not the teaching or the facilities - it is the lack of aspiration.

What a load of bollocks there are plenty of aspirational parents in state schools! I went to a shitty inner city comp, there were plenty of parents who wanted the best for their kids.

You do realise that all this will do is price out the less well off from the best state schools as house prices will go higher where the best schools are, you’ll just have well off state schools!!

There is massive social segregation in state schools already, how will a small number (proportionally) of private school students change that? The majority of high earners’ children are in state schools now, they just tend to end up in different schools than the poorest members of society.

i can’t be bothered to find the links, but studies on the impact of changing schooling / peer groups suggests that there is no impact when a handful (even a large handful) of wealthier students are dropped into a lower income school in terms of social mobility for the poorer students. The converse is where you see social mobility - when children from disadvantaged backgrounds are given places in wealthy schools their outcomes shift significantly. Evidence would suggest that the answer isn’t moving rich kids to poor schools, but giving more places for poor kids at rich schools.

I disagree that simply having more pupils from ‘high achieving intelligent families’ will have a positive impact on other pupils.

It may lift school performance. If there’s more kids that are from backgrounds where parents can financially invest in their children’s education and are interested in their children’s education.

But that’s doesn’t mean a positive impact on the other children. What is more likely to happen (long term) is that property prices will rise in the areas around schools that are already good. Pricing out normal families. I have seen it happen where we lived and with my daughter’s school. She is an an adult now and houses around her schools catchment are very expensive.

Children who perform badly due to a lack of interest from their parents or even abusive home lives aren’t going to all of a sudden perform better because more class mates come from wealthy back grounds with interested parents.

Rich people sending their kids to the state school isn’t going to magically solve the underlying reasons lots of children aren’t achieving.

It might not have an effect on the children of really disinterested parents but it might help children like I was - children from a lower middle class background who wanted to do well but eventually give in to the peer pressure of not trying because it is not “cool” to try hard at school. I very nearly went down that path (despite being very academically able) but luckily didn’t and I think a big reason for that was that, through my hobby outside school, I mixed with children from private schools, for whom it was “cool” to do well.

Anyway, I am definitely not supporting VAT on schools and will be voting Conservative! I just wanted to acknowledge the merits of the point another poster made.

So is the policy about pushing private school students back into state (= zero tax take) or about hoping they stay put and pull in the 20% vat?

It's hard to say 'both' - if some move and some stay, all you're doing is cancelling out the tax gained by having to educate more on the taxpayers dime.

What a mess!

@bravefox Agreed - If it’s being done for ideological reasons then it would make more sense (and be more effective) to simply ban private schools.

If it’s being done to raise more money to fund state schools then I don’t think that will work.

Children who perform badly due to a lack of interest from their parents or even abusive home lives aren’t going to all of a sudden perform better because more class mates come from wealthy back grounds with interested parents.
Rich people sending their kids to the state school isn’t going to magically solve the underlying reasons lots of children aren’t achieving

I agree with this. Also there seems to be a contradiction about this. One minute posters are saying private school children are thick, entitled and ‘spoon-get’. The next minute they’re saying an influx of these children will help state schools improve.

It will cost the government next to nothing to add a 31st child to a class of 30.

It would have been more pragmatic to table VAT at 5 or 10% rather than 20%. Most schools and or parents would stump up an extra 5%.

But given that not all will leave private or not all will be priced out. You are talking about small amounts of pupils in each school coming from private.

Do you really think kids who are trying to fit by not doing the work, will all of sudden change because they exist in a school with some whose parents decided to take their child out of private/not send them even though they could.

Theres already plenty of intelligent, high achieving kids in schools. Plenty whose parents could have afforded private but decided not to. Plenty who have parents who are involved in their education. Adding another one or two isn’t going to make a difference.

It would only have made a difference to you, if the one of the pupils moved and became really good friends with you and also increased your confidence so you felt more comfortable to achieve. And that’s a very slim possibility. And huge amounts of pressure on the child you are expecting to have this magical effect.

I strongly disagree with you and the previous poster. I have already written my experience on this thread.

The potential addition of a handful of private school families will have no influence on a school or the behavior and aspirations of others. We care deeply about our ds education but our presence in the school community (and that of many of our friends who have dc at the same school who share our concerns) has no impact on what happens in school.

"Good" pupils will get dragged down, they won't raise the standards.

This argument is going around and around in circles.

Firstly we have 4/10 pupils will leave private school, secondly schools will be flooded with pupils with SEND, and now we have there will only be “small amount of pupils” who will join state.

I’m getting confused!

Why will good pupils get dragged down especially if in secondary? Surely the private school education has taught them self reliance etc?

I think for lots of kids the shift from private won't happen in September, but in a few years whenever they reach year 7 or sixth form. And I'd imagine there will be fewer applications

Have you ever experienced relentless bullying because you are bright and/or work hard? I have, it resulted in severe mental health problems which impacted my educational achievements. For others, they change their behaviour to try to fit in. It’s nonsense to think that former private school pupils will be able to improve state schools.

My god, the way some folks talk, you'd swear there were no high-achieving motivated kids in state schools.

What utter nonsense.

And yes, those kids do make a difference.

@AhNowTed my DH was high achieving and motivated throughout his school days, he was also bullied throughout his school days for it, being at one of the lowest achieving schools in the country. He has no happy memories of school. I guess he made a difference, as gave a target to a number of other pupils.

Same. I was a bright quiet child in state secondary and spent nearly all my years there being bullied for it. Yes the impact on my mental affected my academic performance too, as did the disruption in class.