The reaction to National Service on here

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Many European countries (including Scandinavian countries) have NS. Are they ‘ridiculous’? Or are their much-coveted-by-Mumsnet-users communities better because of their sense of individual responsibility and contribution?

If 24 days (that’s how long it would be in total) of delivering prescriptions or volunteering as a hospital guide has you talking about human rights violations and Nazi Germany, then it’s very clear that you’re so pampered a bit of NS would do you good.

Everyone on here expects the world in terms of a ’village’, generous benefits, a caring society, but wants to do fuck all to contribute to it and think the notion of them having to do ANYTHING for anyone else is insane.

It’s nuts!

18 year olds can be divided into catagories

1. The ones already volunteering - don't disrupt them!
2. The ones who are reasonably keen, but can't at this point in their lives because of study/needing to earn money/ family commitments/health reasons - why are you going to mess up their lives and overburden them with this?
3. The ones don't want to, but will full fill the letter of the law, (mostly)if forced- what use will a bunch of angry, resentful, reluctant, distressed young people be to anyone?
4. The ones that refuse - what are you going to do about it? Prison? Fines? Who is going to enforce this? How?

My comparison to Luxembourg is that young people are taught how to use extinguishers and put out minor fires

Perfectly sensible, but you don't need national service to learn useful skills. It could be done during school holidays. On a voluntary basis.

Yeah they are supportive by giving them opportunities to do stuff, it’s part of the ethos of saying “you are part of society, do your bit” not stand around complaining that no-one is doing enough for YOU. Maybe its part of how they inculcate the ethos into their population.

Nope they are supportive because of better childcare options, education, less inequality, more social mobility etc. That stuff matters & makes people feel included in their society.

I get it, the big problem is housing, it’s not easy for young people. But this won’t make their lives any worse, it may add something which is hard to put into monetary terms. There are loads of things we do which don’t make our material circumstances any better but still enrich our lives and those of the people around us.

I’m not against NS, but surely in order for it to work they need to make sure young people are better supported in other areas of life, like other countries do, before asking more of them. Sort out the mental health crisis, housing costs crisis, NHS crisis.

this

Exactly. More sensible countries don't categorise young people as a problem to be solved to begin with.

I get it, the big problem is housing, it’s not easy for young people. But this won’t make their lives any worse, it may add something which is hard to put into monetary terms. There are loads of things we do which don’t make our material circumstances any better but still enrich our lives and those of the people around us.

I don’t think “do this, because your life can’t get worse & you may learn something” is a good enough message or incentive.

Everybody who votes for this for young, should expect to be signed up themselves. No excuses.

All 18 year olds involved in this should demand the minimum wage rater for 25+.

You miss my point, when young people see themselves as part of society and contributing to society BEFORE they start paying into the system doesn’t it create a more virtuous cycle?” I helped people as an 18 yr old/ I learnt how to put out a fire/ I learned how to stack sand bags correctly/ i helped a little kid to read. Now I’m an adult I care about those things and it informs how I see the world”.

I don't object to National Service in principle. I strongly object to the ridiculous, ill-thought-through proposals of this particular version of national service.

@Chickenuggetsticks no, you are not understanding my point.

Nah, I’m only horrified that everyone 19+ isn’t being told to get their finger out and volunteer as well, neither of my teens are 18 yet and they’ve both done the amount of volunteering suggested (DC1 by many multiples). What I don’t like is a bunch of lazy bastards who would probably benefit from doing it themselves and must therefore be gutted to have missed out on the opportunity dictating to one particular age group that only they should do it.

Many European countries (including Scandinavian countries) have NS. Are they ‘ridiculous

In Scandinavian countries people rely on the state to help them at all points of their life, and therefore giving back to the state makes sense. They don't rely on charities.

I actually have friends from two different Nordic counties who have pointed out our reliance on charities is weird.

In the UK we rely on social and welfare gaps caused by lack of state provision to be filled in by charities.

In fact the poisonous Tory politicians of the last 14 years have made it crystal clear they won't help young people as our child poverty rate and child homelessness rate have gone through the roof.

Well I’m guessing the Scandi countries were well thought out and planned unlike this utter shit.

I imagine it would just be a ridiculous shit show of disorganisation a bit like the similar schemes this government has tried already.
What was the one for teenagers , ncs?
The idea was to empower and engage young people. In reality it is groups of disengaged teens given a high vis and litter pickers, effectively doing unpaid ‘work’( formerly known as community service).
And wasn’t there a nationwide scheme launched just before the pandemic by the daily mail with the government , to get volunteers into the nhs? But nothing came of that either?
And then we have this governments insistence that children must remain in education until they’re 18, so instead of full time work it has to be an ‘apprenticeship’ or similar with day release college options. But the regulations for employers are so restrictive that nobody dares risk their livelihood by taking on a teenage apprentice?
The same goes for work experience. I remember being at school and the careers office would arrange loads of exciting opportunities for those who couldn’t do work experience with a relative/ friend. No chance of this these days because a)do careers advisors even exist in schools anymore? And b)nobody wants the additional workload of a million risk assessments to accomodate a teenager who’ll effectively be making the tea for three days 🤷‍♀️

But it will make their lives worse. School leavers would have to have a year of unemployment with no benefits, because there aren't enough jobs for 18 year olds that don't require weekend work, and they won't be able to afford university without a job.

when young people see themselves as part of society and contributing to society BEFORE they start paying into the system doesn’t it create a more virtuous cycle?

Our society currently tells them they’re worthless though.
Mental health issues? Sure we’ll help you, in 18 months.
Want to work and leave home at 18? Hahahaha don’t be silly, have you seen the cost of renting a house plus bills?
Free university fees? Not likely.
Like the X thread linked earlier, so much has been taken away from this cohort of youngsters, that were there to help give them a good start.

After the war there was a lot of patriotism, and national pride (not in a BNP way!). We don’t have that. The government have spent the last few years shitting on people from a great height, they’re having a laugh assuming that we’re going to think that this latest half cocked idea is a good’un!

This idea came out of some SpAd's arse last week and doesn't even have the back of a fag packet's amount of detail. It's not some carefully considered proposal for a society-bonding programme of personal development. It's purely a handful of sand to chuck in the media's eyes to stop them taking about health, education, environment, cost of living, immigration, etc. People are falling for the trick and switching all their attention to this vacuous scheme that The Party has no more intention of delivering than it had in 2019 of delivering 40 new hospitals.

Yes, back in the early 00s I worked Saturday & Sundays to support myself at uni & during the holidays. My loan paid for rent & nothing else, I don’t think things have got easier.

But that's with the assumption that 18 year olds don't contribute. Which is untrue and unfair.

I just don't understand why they think THIS is worth £2.5bn a YEAR?!

It is quite often done in scouts and guides, etc anyway - but even so, the biggest lesson to teach about fire extinguishers is to be used to save life only - in other words, 99% of the time, just leave them and evacuate

The most insulting part of this is that the Tories believe their core voters despise young people so much that this would secure a win.

Might be subject for a different thread but I think as a Country we have lost the idea & appreciation of 'Public Service' & I blame this Govt for that!

People performing jobs in public service aren't paid well , they never were but they had good terms & conditions & a good pension - those have been eroded over the passed 14 years, particularly the 10 years of austerity!

Civil Servants are villified in the press, called lazy, the blob etc - like every profession some are, most aren't!

Theresa May in her leaving speech at the closing of Parliament talked about public service & the privilege of being an MP, but said lots of the current Govt have forgotten they are there to serve their constituents - not for themselves.

So I think that has a part in the outrage on here- I also think the press didn't report it well or people saw the headlines without reading the detail 🤷‍♀️

@cannonballz yes true, but this actually reduces the amount of fires started in the first place.

Although now we’re thread derailing - but it’s always interesting to know what other cultures and countries do.

It’s difficult being a Brit abroad right now 😳