The reaction to National Service on here

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Many European countries (including Scandinavian countries) have NS. Are they ‘ridiculous’? Or are their much-coveted-by-Mumsnet-users communities better because of their sense of individual responsibility and contribution?

If 24 days (that’s how long it would be in total) of delivering prescriptions or volunteering as a hospital guide has you talking about human rights violations and Nazi Germany, then it’s very clear that you’re so pampered a bit of NS would do you good.

Everyone on here expects the world in terms of a ’village’, generous benefits, a caring society, but wants to do fuck all to contribute to it and think the notion of them having to do ANYTHING for anyone else is insane.

It’s nuts!

May be you have made a different point here, there's so many articles about older people paid tax all there lives blah blah and the triple lock. The fact of it is that they paid no where near enough tax to cover there medical care and pension.

We have added 3 years per decade to life expectancy but only 1 year per decade of healthy life expectancy. We need a greater personal responsibility for our costs, and better communication of these.

There's also a lot if talk about how people get a raw deal on tax. In general most people get a very good deal. If you look at the tax paid verses the public spend on them.

I don't know anywhere that pays £15 per hour for 18 year olds but that is irrelevant. This scheme wouldn't pay anyone and it's only aimed at 18 year olds not "people " in general. Do you seriously think it okay to force adults to do unpaid work that nobody else wants to do?

You can’t just force anyone to do care work. You need to be a caring person suited to the job. People who require care deserve to be treated with dignity and looked after well. Not a revolving door of 18 years olds most who won’t want to be there .

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

Conscription in Norway is quite flexible, around 1/6th serves in the military, and it's quite difficult to get in. However there is alot more military useful skills which come as par of the course, society is quite focused on outdoor life even around Oslo where I live.

Many of the young people I know ( mainly children of friends) are keen to do there national service. It's seen as a milestone like russefeiring.

@wombat15 published pay scales in councils apply to everyone over 18.

@ThinkingForward

Yes, in other countries it is seen as a positive thing. I don’t want to derail the thread at all by debating the cost of a carer but as a professional working the amount of years I have treated many veterans and survivors of war with complex injuries. Alongside war comes the need to treat and care for those injured and if there is a national service scheme, it should include people that want to gain experience of health and care. That is the reality of war. People with head injuries from shrapnel. Amputated limbs from bombs and mines. Burns. Loss of vision or eye or part of their face. Mental health PTSD and trauma.

As a policy it is designed to appeal to older voters who dislike youngsters out of spite and feel they need taking down a peg or two. That's it. There is no world in which kids would learn "valuable skills" because the funding isn't there. It's not "volunteering" because it's forced and it won't help organisations like the NHS or care homes. Would you want to be looked after by an 18 year old who didn't want to be there?
Young people have a shit enough deal compared to what older people had. They are in debt from their university fees (and uni isn't really optional any more. To get a decent job most employers require a degree for no apparent reason)
They stayed home for ages, missing schooling and seeing their friends in their formative years because of COVID, and they have no hope of affordable housing.
WHY anyone thinks it's fair to also force them to give up one weekend a month (when many would have been working otherwise so they'll lose pay) is hard to understand. Until you realise it's just out of spite.

Well surely this is an extension of education, at school I had to choose between a bunch of options I wasn't that keen on and forced to take compulsory subject which I hate.

There is some value in the idea of getting people a little out there comfort zone. This was the practice of a college I went to. If you were academic then you had one afternoon a week doing something totally different (I did forklift driving, Indian head massage, photography, and a few other things). Similarly if you weren't academic then you got extra support to boost your English, maths etc.

If national service is framed as an extension of education, and credit is given for it then it would be more worthwhile. I don't see how you could run this that cheaply though. Realistically you would need to provide accommodation and food etc. for it to be a valuable experience then it would likely need to be away from home. I suppose you could take over some of the university halls where university's have over reached and are now in trouble. You would need to pay a stipend of some kind although it might be in cash terms low to account for the accommodation and food. Or it could be voluntary but in exchange for another benefit ( reduced repayment rate for student loan?)

This needs to be part of a bigger societal plan with, department structures and budgets being adjusted to cater for this. With places offered in sectors

DEFRA: there are thousands of miles of pathways, fences, canals, forests, rivers etc which could be maintained, wildlife to be monitored etc

DoE: educational assistant

Local government: lots of roles could be looked at

Civil defence force: military/ police/ fire etc

The headache is that many people and unions would feel like this is replacement of roles, also thousands of existing job descriptions would need to be changed

There is some existing infrastructure to do this through scouting, Duke of Edinburgh etc

Yes, I have some experience of that.

There are alot of people who seem to feel entitled to "rights" but few who talk about the cost and responsibilities associated with them.

They have "no interest in the military as they want peace" if you want peace then those are the people who should be most interested in the military.

The government has managed both to over and under reach with the military for years, as well as do a poor job of communicating what the military does to benefit society. This includes drugs patrols at sea, intercepting aircraft with potential malicious intent, building infrastructure to deliver aid in conditions which no civil contractors can work.

War is 💩, it's mostly about making the least 💩 choice. We need an adequate defence force to put off potential aggressors and to protect our society and economy from those that wish us harm.

I think what I get frustrated with this most often is the assumption( I see most on here , is the patient is always)gotta be older . Some patients are young too .Young people and old people have the same rights not matter what they have paid in the way of taxes .You cannot say old people didn't pay enough taxes in hindsight the Govt of the day suggested this was enough .Stop letting the Gov. off the hook .

National service as part of a preparedness programme for the entire nation is fine.

National service as a way of getting free labour to prop up a system brought to its knees by a self serving government is an utter pisstake.

It hasn’t just been this government that has caused this crisis. It is successive governments. They have all let house prices rise. The whole system has:- Encouraged fewer children to be born. Relied on immigration. Let fast-food places proliferate. Stopped people on benefits working seasonally on farms. Etc.

And most of all ignored the soaring health and social situation which is now in crisis.

This govt of the day.... Who mandated them? Voters of the time.... Who now expect others to pick up the tab and moan about sdlt to move and heating bills when they don't.

This is why we need something closer to a DC system for pensions as seemingly most people have very little interest in national statistics.

Are you or have you ever been an Army Reserve? It seems that people talking about "rights and responsibilities" want others to take responsibility but rarely do anything themselves. Hence why the Tories think this might win them votes - none of the people voting will have to do anything. It will only effect future 18 year olds.

You are confusing 18 year olds with children when they are actually adults and therefore should have the same rights as other adults. You wouldn't say that as school children are forced to choose options it's okay for 40 year olds to provide free labour. 18 year olds don't have to go to school and are not "forced to choose between a bunch of options" they aren't keen on. Although some might still be at school, they will be busy doing exams. Those at university will be studying and usually having to earn money to support themselves. Why should 18 years have to provide free labour when no other adult does? The fact that the free labour would also cost money to organise makes the whole idea even more outrageous.

There are many on this thread including myself who would be more in favour of something that is an extension of education such as one afternoon a week doing community service type work.

But this isn’t that. It’s wanting young adults to give up essential paid work or hobbies etc that may or may not be beneficial for their future eg music/sport AT WEEKENDS when they are already within or studying in the week.

I wonder how many posters who agree with this idea would be so enthusiastic about it if the scheme was to be extended to ALL working age adults? Would they happily give up 2 day's pay every month whilst still being obliged to work those 2 days? Because that's exactly what they are advocating for 18year olds whose jobs involve weekend work.

Of course they wouldn’t.

And those who talk about 18 year olds having no responsibilities etc have never met some of the young people I know who have gas/electricity bills to pay and wouldn’t eat if they couldn’t work. Not t everyone has a family able to support them.

Not the army reserve, but had my time in armoured vehicles, I was stood 70m from a Warrior IFV as an IED was detonated.

Both my dc were working before they left school and carried on working after leaving school.
This idea of having the summer off and being free to take up doing stuff for free before going to uni is a very middle class idea.

It’s as though no 18 year old will be working the day/week/month after school finishes.

I know an 18 year old with 3 children, a husband, jobs and their own place that needs the rent paying each month

I think members of the government and a lot of people only consider what affects them, how rules will affect other people like them and don’t consider that there are people who don’t fit into this mold

Lots of 18 year olds already work full time too. Isn’t there a law that says people are entitled to 24 hours rest in a 7 day period . That workers can opt out of but why would they for unpaid work . So are employers of 18 year olds that work Monday to Friday going to be forced to give them a day off during the week so they can work for free at the weekend .

You could put this forward as an option, £4800 additional tax or 24 days service/ a combination of the two.

It does seem somewhat feudal.

The full time option seems better if it had some merit to it. If nothing else it might support young people in gaining more life experience and having some security when compulsory education ends.

Something else which might be worth noting in some countries you would struggle to get certain jobs for example politician, legal, local govt etc without national service.

Is it a problem if some people pay to get out of it? The fine could either be set at number of minimum: days x 1/220th of national average annual salary.

You could additionally make it compulsory for some professions to have completed there nation service. Politicians for example.

In what capacity did you do that?