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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The reaction to National Service on here

793 replies

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 27/05/2024 19:01

Many European countries (including Scandinavian countries) have NS. Are they ‘ridiculous’? Or are their much-coveted-by-Mumsnet-users communities better because of their sense of individual responsibility and contribution?

If 24 days (that’s how long it would be in total) of delivering prescriptions or volunteering as a hospital guide has you talking about human rights violations and Nazi Germany, then it’s very clear that you’re so pampered a bit of NS would do you good.

Everyone on here expects the world in terms of a ’village’, generous benefits, a caring society, but wants to do fuck all to contribute to it and think the notion of them having to do ANYTHING for anyone else is insane.

It’s nuts!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Alexandra2001 · 29/05/2024 07:28

Persimonne72 · 29/05/2024 00:55

No, if you read carefully the announcement you will find out that National Service doesn't mean mostly military service at all but a community service. Only a fraction of those 18 years old would be involved in military training and this still wouldn't mean digging trenches or crawling in helmet with rifle but working in cyber security and engineering and similar.

I am not a Tories voter neither I think it is a well thought service but I cannot gather why people comment without actually reading what Sunak proposed.🤦🏼‍♀️

I read it.

No exceptions, even if on a gap year..... wtaf?

Student nurses/ot's/paramedics expected to do this, even though they all do v long & unpaid placements.

So 18yo goes to charity X for a weekend, comes back again in a months time, has now forgotten pretty much everything they were told a month ago.....
Do the Police/Fire Service really have the time to muck about with 18yo's 2 days out of 30?

On military, cyber security? Engineering? it takes years to learn about these things, they are degree level (and beyond) subjects.

If we have a section of our youth who would benefit from this type of scheme, why not just focus on them, rather than lumping them all together?

Sunak said that our kids are all a bunch of bored, would be criminals.... looking for trouble.

Katypp · 29/05/2024 07:30

Hedgeoffressian · 27/05/2024 19:07

It’s because it’s a proposal from the Tories. Had it been Labour they would all be saying what a great idea it is 🙄

I think that is probably correct

Alexandra2001 · 29/05/2024 07:38

Katypp · 29/05/2024 07:30

I think that is probably correct

Well, i wouldn't.

Part time National Service is bonkers, as is making Students at Uni, or at FE do this is madness, they aren't the children that need it......

My DD did 24 weeks placement in various hospitals, all unpaid, fuck off to making people like her give up even more time to do another 5 weeks unpaid.

Katypp · 29/05/2024 07:48

Sorry but you have consistently supported every Labour policy and pledge and criticised every Tory one.
I think had this been a Labour idea, you are highly likely accept it.

TorringtonDean · 29/05/2024 08:01

Not military service? Well some of it is. My kids have had jobs and volunteered as well. There is no need to take them away from those things. School is already compulsory to 18. Enough.

Newmum738 · 29/05/2024 08:10

My thought was about those who have to work at the weekend to fund their studies or any other reason. It's another policy created by someone who doesn't know their own privilege.

Alexandra2001 · 29/05/2024 08:13

Katypp · 29/05/2024 07:48

Sorry but you have consistently supported every Labour policy and pledge and criticised every Tory one.
I think had this been a Labour idea, you are highly likely accept it.

No i don't, i don't agree with Wes Streetings plan to get NHS staff to work weekends and evenings, staff are already burnt out.

I'm also not sure about the VAT thing or the Nom Dom plan, now a tory policy.
The danger is, it drives people out of the UK, they may not pay tax on overseas earnings but might well be paying large amounts on UK earnings.

School fee VAT, i want to see Labours workings on the effects of this, many of the arguments made by the anti's are compelling.

On the Tories, i'm not going to praise Tory plans when everything they ve done over the last 14 years has been a failure.

I ve given my reasons for why i'm against sunaks NS plan, those reasons would stand if Starmer came out with it.... its a plan designed to be backed by their base.

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 29/05/2024 08:17

I don't necessarily think that the idea of it giving them skills and a sense of community is such a bad idea but it's the fact that our society is not set up for this to work. Many young people need to work to survive and/or pay for university/college. Have families that need care etc. and this hasn't been thought through.

I also find the people all crowing that it might teach them a bit of discipline galling as they haven't done any of this and not all young people are workshy and lack discipline. The older generations have created the society we live in which is tough for the younger generations and it's only going to get harder.

It is nothing lik nazi Germany though so if someone has made that comparison, that's frankly ridiculous.

trampoline123 · 29/05/2024 08:25

When I first saw it announced I was against it, but don't actually think it's a completely terrible idea. I do still have a few issues with it though and my thoughts are this:

If the 18 y/o is in employment I don't think it should apply to them. Most employers now do lots of charity work and something companies should all sign up to to get everyone involved.

Hoping young carers will be exempt.

If the 18 y/o is studying I think there's time for volunteering.

The govmnt should improve conditions for the armed forces and focus on getting PROFESSIONAL service men and women.

Anyone on benefits and fit for work, kids not wanting to work or go in to further education should be forced to national service by joining the armed forces or volunteering more than once a month and for the length of them not working/being educated.

Apparently it will be enforced by fining parents, 18 y/o are adults and not children.

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 29/05/2024 08:29

Yalta · 29/05/2024 06:00

Tbh I wouldn’t ask or expect the “community” to help as I know none would be forth coming.

I'm not a fan of the policy but I am a fan of building communities to support one another. Surely if we start to build communities this will only help you and your DD - get the surestart centres back, get childcare accessible and cheap, help people come together to help. We live in such an individualistic society these days and it's helped no one, so although I'm not supportive of NS per se I do want to see our younger generations supported and we need to see our society shift.

DramaLlamaBangBang · 29/05/2024 08:32

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 29/05/2024 08:29

I'm not a fan of the policy but I am a fan of building communities to support one another. Surely if we start to build communities this will only help you and your DD - get the surestart centres back, get childcare accessible and cheap, help people come together to help. We live in such an individualistic society these days and it's helped no one, so although I'm not supportive of NS per se I do want to see our younger generations supported and we need to see our society shift.

I agree with what you say. And the worst way to build communities is to pit generations against each other and pander to the prejudices of some older people that the youth of today are all useless layabouts who deserve a good kicking at every turn!

TorringtonDean · 29/05/2024 08:36

If we are worried about layabouts then the police could crack down on drug crime and start some enforcement. Many young people are actually hardworking and study. For those that are not, getting them to do national service will be a nightmare. Fine parents? No, these are adults.

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 29/05/2024 08:37

DramaLlamaBangBang · 29/05/2024 08:32

I agree with what you say. And the worst way to build communities is to pit generations against each other and pander to the prejudices of some older people that the youth of today are all useless layabouts who deserve a good kicking at every turn!

Edited

Oh I quite agree and that's what I had put in my previous comment. I know so many young people who are working hard but with limited options for the future unless their parents can help. It's so sad, we just aren't set up for NS in our current society.

I had put in my pp about people crowing about how NS is such a good idea and it'll teach the youngsters discipline have not participated (and wouldn't) in anything like this. Our younger generation are not all lazy and workshy just like other generations are not (I think it was said about my generation and the ones before that because they had washing machines and microwaves).

wombat15 · 29/05/2024 08:46

DramaLlamaBangBang · 29/05/2024 08:32

I agree with what you say. And the worst way to build communities is to pit generations against each other and pander to the prejudices of some older people that the youth of today are all useless layabouts who deserve a good kicking at every turn!

Edited

I think the aim of the policy is possibly to pit generations against each other.

Itsrainingten · 29/05/2024 08:53

@wombat15 agree
It's a horrible ageist policy. Designed to punish youngsters for the crime of being young. They already have a much harder time than the average older person did at that age - COVID, house prices, lack of jobs, need to get an expensive pointless degree to be considered for every role.) I have no idea why anyone would think it fair or right that they should be expected to "give back" one weekend a month for a year!
How about we have a compulsory "volunteering" for 65 year olds before they can access their pension at 67? (I don't actually think we should do this btw, just pointing out how unfair and ageist the policy is!)

NasiDagang · 29/05/2024 08:53

cannonballz · 27/05/2024 20:04

@MaryMaryVeryContrary sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but can you please explain what sort of volunteering you do and how often? thank you

Good point, I've got the same question. What kind of volunteering does she do?

echt · 29/05/2024 09:00

Nepmarthiturn · 29/05/2024 04:01

Maybe they should compel all of the pensioners with lots of free time on their hands - the cohort who on average are taking hundreds of thousands of pounds each more from the state in services than they ever paid in tax - to give up some free time to "serve their communities" rather than 18 year olds, the vast majority of whom have exams to do, part time jobs trying to save for university and housing costs the like of which current pensioners never had to pay, and have already endured Covid and Brexit and stand to inherit a trashed economy and climate from their wonderful elders. Perhaps those elders who have stripped the country bare like piranhas should "give something back to society".

They're already doing it.
https://www.ncvo.org.uk/news-and-insights/news-index/uk-civil-society-almanac-2023/volunteering/what-are-the-demographics-of-volunteers/

What are the demographics of volunteers?

https://www.ncvo.org.uk/news-and-insights/news-index/uk-civil-society-almanac-2023/volunteering/what-are-the-demographics-of-volunteers/

echt · 29/05/2024 09:01

Katypp · 29/05/2024 07:48

Sorry but you have consistently supported every Labour policy and pledge and criticised every Tory one.
I think had this been a Labour idea, you are highly likely accept it.

So what?

NasiDagang · 29/05/2024 09:03

cannonballz · 27/05/2024 21:49

the op has not given any answer to how much time they spend volunteering themselves, so I think it safe to assume thats a big fat zero then....

I don't think OP volunteers or contributes to the local community at all but expects other people to do it. Pot calling the Kettle black comes to mind.

HebburnPokemon · 29/05/2024 09:09

How is this policy not AGEIST??

Persimonne72 · 29/05/2024 10:04

wombat15 · 29/05/2024 00:01

What exactly would they do as volunteers for the NHS?

I bet that nothing that would deprive them of arms and legs.

TorringtonDean · 29/05/2024 10:09

Oh yes, it’s just so inconceivable to you that soldiers end up with amputations. It’s happened very recently to British soldiers so it’s not so inconceivable. Do you have no idea about that. They say these youngsters won’t be on active service but then a week ago they hadn’t even come up with this idea!

Persimonne72 · 29/05/2024 10:10

Alexandra2001 · 29/05/2024 07:28

I read it.

No exceptions, even if on a gap year..... wtaf?

Student nurses/ot's/paramedics expected to do this, even though they all do v long & unpaid placements.

So 18yo goes to charity X for a weekend, comes back again in a months time, has now forgotten pretty much everything they were told a month ago.....
Do the Police/Fire Service really have the time to muck about with 18yo's 2 days out of 30?

On military, cyber security? Engineering? it takes years to learn about these things, they are degree level (and beyond) subjects.

If we have a section of our youth who would benefit from this type of scheme, why not just focus on them, rather than lumping them all together?

Sunak said that our kids are all a bunch of bored, would be criminals.... looking for trouble.

You are commenting the whole idea as if I was supporting it. I am merely making a remark that it is not a military in a sense of crawling in mud in helmet with rifle in hand under the spikey wire on a simulation of the battle field. And THIS is a military service definition. And this is what are young people in countries with military service are doing

Even the 30k will support engineering and cyber security and not be involved in any serious physical training.

Persimonne72 · 29/05/2024 10:13

TorringtonDean · 29/05/2024 10:09

Oh yes, it’s just so inconceivable to you that soldiers end up with amputations. It’s happened very recently to British soldiers so it’s not so inconceivable. Do you have no idea about that. They say these youngsters won’t be on active service but then a week ago they hadn’t even come up with this idea!

Are we talking about the scope of National Service drafted by Sunak or about military service for professional soldiers? I thought that we are talking about the first thing. How do you imagine losing arms and legs by... volunteering or fighting cybercrimes, or in engineering?

This is an island. Unless we are going to have airstrike from Russia you are unlikely to expect any reason to be harmed by a military activities. And if that will be the case, we all will be equally in dangwr

And we are over 70 years from the times when an average man could land in battle in Normandy. Technology is far more advanced

Zwicky · 29/05/2024 10:14

Who says people would need to give up all those things?

Rishi said, when he said it would be one weekend a month. They aren’t Schrödinger's cat. They can’t be at their paid work and also in a different place working for free. Their employer can’t have them in shift doing the job they’ve employed them to do and the government have them litter picking 10 miles away at the same time.

Do you really think that is what happens in places where there is NS? Because it's not. Many of those things would continue much as they are.

No, because other NS schemes aren’t organised in the ridiculous way that this is proposed. They have a flexibility with age (x amount of time between the ages of y and z) rather than it has to be the second you start full time work or higher education in a different city, or in the middle of your FE course, and aren’t in pathetic little drips with 3 week gaps that don’t allow you to embrace it, learn from it, and develop actual competence and usefulness and actually make a contribution. They actually pay participants rather than expecting them to live on fresh air while they do it. They don’t just expect you get on with your life while chucking barriers at you at monthly intervals. I doubt they limit the volunteering to weekends either, eliminating huge swathes of the public sector and any evening activity and giving maximum interference with the jobs typically done by 18yos (and the hobbies of the especially entitled people) and making it an absolute administrative ballache for the public sector organisations having to place 700000 people into 4 sessions.

It's also temporary, and the reason it's usually proposed for younger people is because it dovetails in well to the end of their education years and can provide a good start into the adult working world

Being temporary doesn’t negate how disruptive it is. A year is a long time to have your income hobbled and to put off working life, travelling, university etc. It dovetails into nothing. Education and work may dovetail but this doesn’t. It blocks flexibility with paid employment, travel, existing volunteering on weekends, moving between towns, it makes a group of people just starting out in work spectacularly unattractive to employers. It will not teach a single skill that couldn’t have been learned in the previous 13 years of education and it will not “give anything back” - 25 days dragged over 12 months does not train people to do anything. Dovetailing would be something like the military training - robust, residential , paid, skilled, with a proper curriculum and consistency in supervision and could be treated like a y14 - but that’s limited and would fuck up anyone doing an actual y14 unless the FE funding model changed from 16-19 to 16-21. and it’s also complete nonsense that these military people are getting trained in 12 months for intelligence roles so I don’t think they should be pretending it is. It’s also a right kick in the face for regular recruits who will have to sign up for 4 years and not get a sniff of beginning to train for a cyber security until they have spent 18 months crawling through ditches and getting a bollocking that the mud has jammed their rifle AND they will have to do a degree.

Your whole post, that it's crazy that anyone should expect to give up anything like even a weekend hobby, for a short time, to serve the wider community, reeks of entitlement
My actual whole post was mostly about paid employment but, no. YOU are entitled that you think your plans for another adults weekend are better than the ones they have made for themselves. It shouldn’t matter what the plans are but you are self righteousness demanding that they give up:
Hobbies (why the actual fuck shouldn’t 18 yo be allowed weekend hobbies? Why? A 17yo can and a 19yo so why not at 18? Why is it ok at 8 and 12 and 33 and 68 but not at 18?)
Sports (It shouldn’t matter if it’s Emma Raducanu, or someone who is always last. If that’s when that completion or match or class or training session is, why should people miss it? How entitled are you, demanding people let their team down, don’t go to training, don’t turn up on the start line.)
Paid work (in the real world people need this money to live on. They are not being “entitled” to need to earn money. In the real world interviewers score on flexibility - needing every 4th weekend off will down score you so you are less likely to get a job at all. )
Volunteering (they need to give up the volunteering they do to do different volunteering - they are being “entitled” to want to spend their time volunteering and must stop)
Studying - lots of 18yos continue in education. It’s not being “entitled” to want to do this.
Relaxing - summon a policeman - an adult is having a rest after working a 7 day stretch in a prison/mine/psych ward/kitchen/care home. - you do know most of these “entitled” people work full time, don’t you? With the exception of students who often only work weekends and now won’t be able to.

Why are you so entitled to that you expect this one specific group to, not only “serve the wider community”, compelled by law, in a way that you don’t, but to not even allow them to do it in their time off? They HAVE to do it when they should be at work or when they have other plans? Why? It’s spectacularly arse about face. The entitlement that you can’t even allow people to continue serving the wider community in the volunteering they already do, or indeed the paid work that contributes to society, but leave that and have to do different volunteering reeks so much it’s starting to smell like spite.

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