The reaction to National Service on here

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Many European countries (including Scandinavian countries) have NS. Are they ‘ridiculous’? Or are their much-coveted-by-Mumsnet-users communities better because of their sense of individual responsibility and contribution?

If 24 days (that’s how long it would be in total) of delivering prescriptions or volunteering as a hospital guide has you talking about human rights violations and Nazi Germany, then it’s very clear that you’re so pampered a bit of NS would do you good.

Everyone on here expects the world in terms of a ’village’, generous benefits, a caring society, but wants to do fuck all to contribute to it and think the notion of them having to do ANYTHING for anyone else is insane.

It’s nuts!

I think you'll find that they're already doing this.

volunteering-statistics

Not really, there was a big uproar on here at the time of previous election about Labour’s proposal
of free Internet.
I also saw a thread sometime ago criticizing Labour’s idea of cleaning teeth at school. I think that it’s ridiculous myself and I’m voting Labour.

I am not sure that this particular plan is well thought out. I'm not really sure what I think Sunak is really trying to accomplish with it. The details obviously would have to be worked but that is doable, lots of countries have a workable system.

But I don't have a particular problem with the concept, I think it offers a lot of benefits for the young people in particular, and in places that have had it for a long time it ultimately benefits the population.

I do agree that the response of a lot of people "why should my kid have to give up her weekends" is basically a selfish entitlement. They are quite happy to expect benefits from the state, which is to say, benefits from other citizens. Every benefit the state can offer to its citizens ultimately comes from the work of other citizens.

I am completely against it. Volunteering is not volunteering if it’s compulsory.

I don’t wish my children to go into the army. Leave it for the professional soldiers who want to be there.

Both my kids are too old for this now and both did volunteering-type activities at this age anyway - by choice! BUT I feel strongly that the end of national service was a good thing in this country and I don’t want to go back to it.

It’s a red herring anyway - just there to keep the focus off the economy.

Putin was president then, and was very active before then. He has been threatening them for decades - I was in Finland on the Russian border myself several times around 12-15 years ago. Whereas their was friendship and comradery between Finnish and Russian border guards, many Finns told me of friendship and love between Finnish and Russian people and "cold terror" of Putin

It wouldn't be volunteering, would it, given that it would be mandatory?

Well you have to think about the history about the Tories competence in running Govt . companies here there is not good deal of confidence there .To making sure people are treated fairly , to making sure wealthy mates kids are not giving secret legs up .C'mon the Tories have got history ,if you don't think your kids will miss out by given a leg up by another tory you don't know them well enough yet . It's all about scratch my back mate ....

What has expecting benefits from the state got to do with what is being proposed

Unfortunately governments are usually made up of older people who at 18 had a plan for their lives and the concept of skiving off and avoiding work is something they hadn’t even contemplated. Or maybe they have and they know what is going to happen and this is just a gateway to something more

This idea is completely unworkable and would cost more than it gets back

Doing charitable work and being of service to your community is all very laudable if you don’t have to separately employ people to monitor those doing the work all day

Exactly, the excuses are getting silly. They can walk, cycle, they don’t need to drive. Honestly these excuses are ridiculous, I’m sure there would be a selection of jobs that qualify, and you’d fit the young person’s circumstances. These excuses remind me of the list of people in my team who can’t possibly come to the office because of x,y,z. My daughter is 16 and I’m sure there’s plenty of jobs she could do, yes she’s got some health issues, possibly autistic (never diagnosed) but you know what, she’s not incapable and it’s great work experience. My son’s would have definitely benefited from it too.

My eldest did work experience via the job centre when he was looking for work, in a charity shop. He complained at first, like all young people do but he got so much out of it, not least a permanent job in the civil service as he was able to use examples from his charity work in the interview / application process.

But yeah, young people can’t possibly fit in any volunteer work, might interrupt their social media time

I voted yabu. Its not 1950 any more and you can't just make people sign up.its less to do with "giving back a
nd more to do with stupid schemes by Rishi to encourage elderly voters "back in my day " lot.

The way this has been announced was to cause a reaction and get people talking.

I don't think it would happen even if they were successful and won the election.

Most 18-year-olds are doing something, very few are not and if they are not it's normally due to a medical reason rather than wanting to live on benefits.

I do have a child who will never work or volunteer due to his complex disability he requires 2 carers with him to be safe so he would be exempt they can't have blanket no exemptions.

If the government wanted this they'd need to fund the voluntary hours somehow as we are still in a cost-of-living crisis and young people are so negatively impacted it wouldn't be fair to add this on to them.

kids also benefit from doing work in the community. This is an unbelievably blinkered attitude.

What do you mean 'as usual...' regarding teens being punished? In what way?
Unpaid labour? Ridiculous

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow You 17 year-old needs to learn about context.
Not all organised events or civic duty is fucking hitler fucking youth.

There may have been a time when I thought some kind of national service was a good idea but now young people are being fleeced out of every penny and having to work nights, evenings and weekends on top of day study and placements just to get to the point of qualifying in most jobs. Asking them to do even more on top isn’t fair at all and the suggestion that parents should be ‘fined’ if a young person chooses to object to this is just morally bankrupt, unfair on the parents, bound to sew family division and how can it be right to emotionally blackmail young people like that. Can’t think of a more ludicrous and unpopular policy to come up with at current??

This totally!! I’ve done many years of voluntary work, my adult DC have done voluntary work also, at a time when it was feasible and we actually had some spare time to do it. Life is so hard for many people nowadays and so much unpaid/minimally paid effort and labour is already demanded from young people nowadays, it’s just insulting to ask for even more from them

All governments are crap at running companies. I remember pre privatisation what the railways, water and gas were like.
It was a sh*tshow.

This sounds like another expensive sh*tshow

I have got to the point where I look at all the parties and can’t see myself voting in a general election (first time ever) because I see problems with all parties.

Rishi is just out of touch with reality and

Keir is too weak and although he will more than likely win with a landslide I think a PM needs to have a vision and a cabinet behind them to make that vision a reality.

Unfortunately with Keir it is the other way round.

I think he needs to take on board the saying

You can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

I predict he will flip flop trying to please everyone and end up pleasing no one

I've done a fair bit of volunteering locally. The hardest thing is getting more adult volunteers.

People don't have the time that they did years ago. Work commitments often stop people who would want to volunteer actually being able to do so. Same with caring commitments. Whether it's young family or looking after elderly relatives.

It stops being volunteering if mandated to do it. And if being forced to do it, is it worth doing? Would a charity prefer having one really keen volunteer or 20 only there as they have to be?

My eldest is 18. Between college, work and his hobby he has little free time. And he often volunteers his time at his hobby when he can.

Years ago, I wouldn’t have thought that unqualified people would be teaching children in schools. I wouldn’t have thought that people who are not doctors would be carrying out some of the work of doctors. In both cases while being paid far less than those qualified to do the work. But they are.

Your example is an extreme one, but I don’t think it’s being too cynical to have concerns about this.

Why should it be restricted to 18 year olds? If it's genuinely something that benefits both society and individuals, then maybe it should be like jury service and everyone should be called up for national service at some time. Make exemptions for people who are already in essential public sector jobs. People with caring responsibilities can defer, and there would be medical exemptions where necessary.

I don't think it's ok to place a burden on an 18 year old that I wouldn't be prepared to carry myself.

This.

The up in arms people probably hate Thatcher, yet are living embodiments of there being no such thing as society. 🤷‍♀️

The reason I oppose it OP is because I don't trust this wouldn't become conscription. I don't support the recent wars our government has been meddling in and provoking and therefore would not want my son used as cannon fodder. You can guarantee it won't be Rishi Subak or Keir Starmer's children who are packed off to the front line.

I do agree that the response of a lot of people "why should my kid have to give up her weekends" is basically a selfish entitlement.

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about not wanting to take unpaid leave from the job that you do to pay your rent and bills to do unpaid work? Both wrt students who overwhelmingly work weekends and for whom this accounts for 25% of earnings, and full time workers, such as those in the NHS, who are contractually obliged to do weekend working?

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about wanting to spend the period of your life between school and full time adult responsibilities travelling or volunteering abroad like previous generations have been able to do?

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about not wanting to flit between your home and university towns, paying £££ your own transport, to do compulsory litter picking or a couple of shifts in a charity shop when you should be working in up your paid job, studying, socialising. (I know people think 18yo socialising is appalling and would never do such a thing themselves)

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about not wanting to give up the volunteering you already do with your hobby or club to do different volunteering in an unrelated sector?

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about not wanting to give up your sports training, especially those who do team sports and those at elite level and those who will miss competitions.

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about Monday-Friday workers not wanting to do 12 shifts on the trot every month?

Can you explain specifically what is “selfish” or “entitled” about an employer in retail, care, beauty, hospitality etc. who does most of their business at weekends, wanting their staff to be actually available. DH is an employer in hospitality. Our pt staff only work weekends. Will he be employing 17/18yo if this comes in? Will he fuck.

Why doesn’t every adult in the whole country give up a weekend every month? No getting off the hook if you work, have a baby, study, want to go on holiday, have got festival tickets, already volunteer in a different area. No excuses, you entitled fucks, I don’t care if you do scouts already and do your mums shopping every Saturday after working all week and you don’t have anyone to walk your dog while you wash a fire engine for 8 hours, It’s selfish and entitled not to want to. I don’t care if you are a nurse and you always work Saturdays for your childcare. Stop being so selfish and entitled!

No, you're being silly thinking that because some European countries already do it that means it could work here where the fundamentals are different. As has already been pointed out, all of them have at least one of a close neighbour who likes invading people or a much better welfare state than ours. We have neither of those. The threat and the skin in the game are what's actually important here.

None of the people who think there'd be benefits, you very much included, have been able to explain how these would be accrued in practical terms. It's just ooh. this would be nice.

Those of us with actual experience in the voluntary sector have explained that this is not a proposal that's likely to actually help. Volunteers take training and supervision even when they actually want to be there, and a day a month just isn't that much unless perhaps you were doing something very highly specialised. I'm a trustee, and that's about the commitment, but the reason it works is due to professional skills already acquired.

It's incredible, really. You obviously understand how bad the Tories have been. But a few people pissed you off in their responses, so you switched off any critical faculties you might have and swallowed it all whole.

Well to play devil's advocate, Swedish youngsters do have the right to get on the list for a council flat from the time they're 18. Wait times in certain Stockholm districts are around two decades and then they'll give you a one-room flat. Make of that what you will.

It's an academic question anyhow. In all of the national cases discussed, national service is primarily military service, with alternative civilian duties for those who decline that. As soon as the ratio becomes, say, 95 percent civilian to 5 percent military service it becomes a form of forced labour outlawed under international human rights conventions- not just the ECHR do vilified by the Tories, but also the ILO. And good luck with that.