To think schools should get with the times re working parents.

[working8til4]

Why can't they be open 8-6 for everyone? It would help reduce gender inequality in the work place

AIBU - DON'T BE SILLY
YANBU - actually you have a point

Genuinely would be interested to know how it works in Scandinavian countries. I assume high taxation but who works in the wrap around care as people here seem to think it’s an unattractive job prospect because of short hours and poor pay. In countries where school stops at lunchtime, what do the children do if both parents work?

This.

Sweden - 50% income tax.

Unfortunately I think most people working in education are still in default mode that mum will work part-time and dad will work any difficult hours. That’s why they still also arrange events at the drop of the hat in the middle of the school day and expect a parent (the female one) to be able to attend.

Life isn’t like this any more, if it ever was. Most families need two incomes. Most parents who have decent qualifications want to make the most of their opportunities in life not become Stepford wives because there is no provision for any childcare beyond 9am to 3pm.

It is not feckless and irresponsible to want to provide a decent life for your kids through working. And it’s not unreasonable to point out that the working day and school hours do not match up and to question what can be done about it.

Strangely the most neglectful parents always seem to be the ones who are around at home all the time!!

School is not childcare, correct.

Childcare where I live is scarce, with long waiting list.

Depending on the area, childcare can be very expensive, not that is not something valuable, or doesn't worth the price, but about 1000 pounds a month is a big chunk of money that not everyone have.

Affordable alternatives to the core working class parent are little, and we do as much as we can, reducing hours, WFH, getting more flexibility etc.

School was 9 to 5 when I was a kid, where I am from and here I am with no more traumas that most of the people I know, in fact I fondly remember my teachers and my class mates. A few of them are still good friends, this was more than 40 years ago.

Nurseries are mostly funded in other countries and come to a maximum cost of half of what we pay here. A third of the cost in most cases.

Alternatives exist and work in other places, the fact that here is different doesn't mean the rest got it wrong, is just different.

It is like the uni degrees, you pay for them in England and you don't need too or at least you don't have to pay that grueling sum in Scotland. I know professionals from both places and I can't see much difference other that the English got in more debt.

For those who thing that we should have to think about this before having kids, well, circumstances changes and, losing a job, sickness, divorce, childcare closing down, family that provides childcare no longer be able to do it for a reason or another and death happens all the time. We can't sort that out before happening? No one can, no even those who think the have done.

Call it school, call it wraparound and early breakfast, there should be more available.

Very true. These are not attractive jobs, and they'd have to be significantly overpaid in order to make them so.

I have a looooooot of sympathy for people in OPs position. We face a perfect storm at the moment, which is why all the posts telling people to sort it all out in advance or similar are so stupid. And it's a vicious circle. We have a shortage of workers, and when the services that people need in order to work aren't there, more people struggle.

But none of this means it's as simple as OP thinks. You can't have a service, however needed, if there aren't people who are willing to do the work.

Ok the government and school system needs a rethink. Why do schools close at 3? Who decided that?

I'm not saying it will be simple. Just that there is no reason for it to be the status quo

Alter your work so you can be there?

I personally work Tuesday to Saturday so I do school runs Monday.
Their dad works Sunday to Wednesday so picks up Thursday/Friday.

Wrap around care Tuesday and Wednesday only.

Of course we'd all love to work Monday to Friday and have the whole weekend together but it's more important for them to always have one of us there.

Schools don't think this. The majority of staff in school are women who have children and understand as they can't go and see their own children in things.

Events are planned in the school day as I refuse to also give up evening time with my own children. I already work 10 hour days in school.!

Might as well gather up all the children at two years old and return them at 18.

Doesn't take long to teach your kid how to sew on a button. If you’re struggling there’s always YouTube or Brownies.

I do think that all primary schools should offer chargeable wrap around care.

I could not send my DS to the village school because it had none which meant a drive rather than a walk etc and less local friends and community involvement.

I couldn't have done primary without wraparound. Happy to pay as it's outside school hours and child is my responsibility.

Well no, the fact that there isn't actually an army of wraparound care workers waiting to step in is in fact a big reason for the status quo. It's not that I don't sympathise. But you needing a service doesn't create people who are willing to provide it for you.

Where do you think the people to staff these provisions in all schools are going to come from?

Anyone arguing that schools should offer wraparound care are just as clueless as people who say GPs should work more hours. You clearly have no understanding of the issue. There's a lack of teachers/doctors/nurses because they're being treated like shit and no buggar wants to do it. The solution definitely isn't to spread them even thinner and make them work even more antisocially. If we want better services then we're going to have to start by making the work more attractive and that probably starts by implementing pay and culture that's more in line with other western countries. We have to address this elephant in the room

the government and the school system needs a rethink
Those are two completely different points.
Are you talking about parliament, or the government bodies? Their hours of work are very different .
When you talk about school hours are you considering the hours worked by children focussing on learning progression or would you like a long day, just not all learning?.
It's the easiest thing in the world to criticise schools. Perhaps, if you're not already, become a School Governor?. Or there are other ways to instigate change.

By the time you factor in before and after school meetings, that 3pm finish is an 8 hour shift for teachers.

If the school day was extended, every teacher would need to be paid more. Or we’d leave, because who wants to work 10-12 hour days?

If you had people coming in to relieve the teachers, you’d have to pay them…because who would do such crap hours for free.

Which is why there is a cost to child care.

I don’t know if you’re being deliberately inflammatory, but having read this thread I don’t think you want ‘schools’ to open beyond 3 (or 3:15/3:30 as is more common) you want subsidised wrap around care to be run on the school site.

Wrap around care is very normal in lots of schools and when I’ve worked in schools that don’t offer this on site, there’s usually private providers who pick up from multiple schools and provide childcare in a central location.

You’ve been very unlucky if there is literally nothing for you to access locally. It’s the main thing I looked at when I applied for my children’s schools - I’m a teacher so couldn’t operate without the after school club.

Schools don't 'close' at 3 though. The school day finishes at 3, all the staff still work until 5/6 so have to organise care for their own kids too. Kids do not need to be educated 8-6 daily.

And what about those who work shifts, irregular hours etc, 8-6 would not be much help to them.

When would teachers do their planning etc if they are teaching all day every day? Would you like them to not have holidays too?

The only change I feel necessary is 6 weeks summer holidays, that drives me MAD! 4 weeks - could handle it but 6 weeks! Dread it every year!

We need an employer-type levy, a bit like the apprentice levy:

This would mean that large employers pay a percentage of their income into a national ringfenced pot. This is then redistributed to local authorities, who then provide grants to local schools to pay for wrap-around care.

This needs to be ringfenced money, for wrap-around care, not poached from money that is meant for education. Schools are for education, not childcare. My taxes should pay for their education, not their wrap-around activities.

Bottom line, someone has to pay. If parents are not going to pay for this, or don't want tax increases, or can't afford to, or haven't budgeted for childcare (yes, some people don't), then where is the money going to come from?

Odd question.

They will see them every evening. They are still your kids when they turn 18 and leave school. It’s possible to have fab relationships with adult kids for as long as you are all alive.

Parents seeing their kids at 6pm for the school years doesn’t mean they are bad parents or shouldn’t have kids. Anyway there are weekends and holidays!

Parenting is a lifetime bond. Or do you think it only exists during the school years.

A local school tried to open an after school club last year but they had so few people wanting to use it, it just wouldn’t have been economically viable. I think it was two people that committed and said they would definitely use it. So many parents have childminders in place that they’re happy with or are WFH/working flexibly, that it wasn’t needed.

There are lots of things I would like taxes to go on, and having schools open 8-6 wouldn’t be one of them!

Schools don't "close at 3" though. At my school the children leave at 3.15 but then we have meetings, planning, paperwork to complete, interventions to plan, phonecalls to make. We cannot do these things while the children are there. I get to school at 7.30am and I'm never the first one there. I leave at 4.30 (to collect my own children) but many of my colleagues are in the building until 6pm because they need the time after the children have left to get work done.

Anyone who has ever taught a class of children know why the school day doesn’t go on much past 3.15/3.30.

You put adverts out for TAs, mid-days, after school etc and get no applicants. Where are you finding all these people for your part time roles? You can’t survive on part time but expect others to or for them to have a ridiculously long day.
We’ve tried putting roles together making them more hours and parent friendly but still no takers. No- one wants to work in schools anymore. The number of staff in schools who I know are ready to leave is frightening or they’ve already left.
Parents need to open their eyes for the state of schools where the staff left are working silly hours to keep going rather than looking in school’s direction to solve another of their problems.

The OP isn’t suggesting teachers provide the extra childcare. Many schools do offer it and it’s usually operated by a private outside company. Why are the teachers on here still unwilling to acknowledge this?

Years and years ago, as I saw mediocre men advance up the career ladder while I, the working mum, languished, I realised that the working world is entirely set up to suit men. They can stay an extra hour shuffling papers because they are not expected to dash home to the kids. And presenteeism still works for career advancement.

But the women are always treated by society as if they are playing at being a worker for pin money and are still expected to also do 99% of the parenting stuff.

When my mum had a professional career in the 70s/80s her SAHM friends really did make jibes about how a job was handy for the “pin money”. Times have moved on but still that attitude is lurking out there. Even among teachers who are themselves educated and professional but happen to work in a career with times more suited to raising kids!