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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think schools should get with the times re working parents.

818 replies

working8til4 · 24/05/2024 20:31

Why can't they be open 8-6 for everyone? It would help reduce gender inequality in the work place

AIBU - DON'T BE SILLY
YANBU - actually you have a point

OP posts:
WoshPank · 27/05/2024 10:01

theholesinmyapologies · 27/05/2024 09:50

Spot on, @FlyingPandas

So many outraged parents demanding that before and after school care be provided ... for peanuts ... genuinely can't understand why it isn't being offered or why it costs what it actually does in so many areas. Yet when presented as a 'sure fire business plan for them to run', the shock, the outrage, the 'no one could survive on those hours and on such a pittance.

But they expect others to jump at the chance.

Even extending the school day by an hour would cost an effing fortune in government spending ... because teacher/ta/staff salaries would have to be increased to cover the increased hours ... meaning increased taxes or cuts elsewhere. Not sure people get that at all.

Of course it would be feasible if we taxed the top 5% and major corporations sensibly and and closed all the loopholes so we could pay such providers properly, but we don't. And we won't. Because it doesn't make sense politically. Utter shame.

It's quite common on MN for people to assume that because they'd like a service to exist, that means there must be people who'd provide to them, and put no thought into it other than that. Comes up in a fair few contexts.

School jobs in particular really seem to attract tropes that are years out of date. People got used to the idea that they used to be like hens teeth, which they did when there were so few flexible and remote options. And then some of them don't update their priors for the 2020s.

Redlocks28 · 27/05/2024 10:04

So it seems there are still a large block of parents who don’t need to work and choose not to.

We have hardly any parents who simply choose not to work. We have plenty with younger children who aren’t working for now though. Having a breakfast/after school club at school wouldn’t help them come and work 7am-8.45 in a breakfast in the slightest, even if you gave them one free place for their school-aged child.

WoshPank · 27/05/2024 10:04

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 09:59

Yes, it does work in a lot of schools! So they must be able to find the workers to run the outsourced service.

Not everyone has family living locally. That’s a luxury. Even so, I can’t imagine my non-existent mother-in-law being able to step in for me at work for a couple of hours so I can get the train back, attend the afternoon tea announced at 23hrs notice, and then return to the office!

Nobody is saying it doesn't work anywhere at all, though. Because obviously some schools do it. They're saying that it's stupid to do as OP does ie assume there's a sufficient supply of people who want to work in wraparound care, perfectly distributed in commuting distance of every school. Especially in a sector where many schools already can't recruit enough staff.

Nobody thinks everyone has local family either. But some people do, and we're part of the picture of primary aged working parents too. It's not necessarily just about receiving family help either. Some of us provide it too!

Sherrystrull · 27/05/2024 10:08

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 09:38

So it seems there are still a large block of parents who don’t need to work and choose not to. How are they surviving? Do they all have partners who are accountants and stockbrokers?

I am asking because I have a professional job and have always needed to work. In fact I am very glad I kept working and never entertained the idea of just living off my husband because eventually my marriage ended and I was left supporting the kids single-handed. There was no way I was personally ever going to end up on benefits when I had decent qualifications and the ability to provide a better life for my family. Having said that, I don’t see myself particularly better off than anyone else. At least I am not worse off as a one parent family, which is statistically the trend.

Just saying this because over the years I encountered a few teachers who rather thought I was working just for the fun of it and who seemed to assume all mothers could still stay home. I’ve encountered the sudden invitations to school events at 2pm the next day etc. The resistance to wraparound childcare seems to be linked to this. They don’t think it’s necessary. Don’t you see this issue is directly linked to the kids having warm winter coats, good shoes, a warm home etc?

I remember the sense of panic when one childminder proved to be unsuitable and another needed to be found at short notice - and the sheer incomprehension of teachers about the fact I still needed to get into work. I remember the desperation of calling round trying to find someone. I also remember teachers being really resistant to the idea of an after-school club when it was first proposed, though we got one.

I didn’t go out work because I didn’t want to be with my kids. I worked because I do love them and wanted the best for them but I couldn’t see any other way. Is this so hard to understand?

Why would teachers assume mothers can stay home? Most are mothers themselves.

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 10:17

@Sherrystrull in my experience the entire system works on the presumption that one parent is still in the home 24/7 Stepford-style.

MrsDTucker · 27/05/2024 10:23

@TorringtonDean

Is it better for the children to have parents who are unemployed?

I was with my child every day after school. Yes we struggled and had no money but they got to be with me and in their home.

Even at after school clubs / childminders they still can't have down time.

Redlocks28 · 27/05/2024 10:25

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 10:17

@Sherrystrull in my experience the entire system works on the presumption that one parent is still in the home 24/7 Stepford-style.

I think they are mostly working on a model that suits small children.

Supergirl1958 · 27/05/2024 10:28

working8til4 · 24/05/2024 20:31

Why can't they be open 8-6 for everyone? It would help reduce gender inequality in the work place

AIBU - DON'T BE SILLY
YANBU - actually you have a point

And what about teachers that are also working parents! Or are teachers just a vessel to be overused, underpaid, heavily criticised by working parents for not doing enough for your darling DC…need I go on?!

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 10:31

@Redlocks28 Ah, I see where you are coming from. Dang it. How irresponsible of me to work to support my kids.

Redlocks28 · 27/05/2024 10:33

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 10:31

@Redlocks28 Ah, I see where you are coming from. Dang it. How irresponsible of me to work to support my kids.

Yep-I go out to work to support my kids as well.

RheaRend · 27/05/2024 10:53

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 09:46

They will not be asked to run the after-school club. It will be run by a private provider!

My friend is a teacher and due to lack of applicants and to ensure parents have childcare, they do take turns at their school to run it. One day a week she works 7:30am - 6pm no breaks.

I have also had to cover after school club when there is sickness/bereavement etc. So yes they are asked regularly to run it.

RheaRend · 27/05/2024 10:54

Sherrystrull · 27/05/2024 10:08

Why would teachers assume mothers can stay home? Most are mothers themselves.

Because this person doesn't understand that teachers are parents too. They also expect teachers to fit things around 'their needs' and do things at all hours of the day to ensure that they can fit around their working lives - sod the teacher and their working hours - the needs of the parent comes first.

RheaRend · 27/05/2024 10:58

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 10:31

@Redlocks28 Ah, I see where you are coming from. Dang it. How irresponsible of me to work to support my kids.

What would you like from teachers? Opening the school at 6pm for a teddy bears picnic supper and them stay all day just for you?

For assembly to be done at 7am for the early starters so ppl can get to work?

RheaRend · 27/05/2024 10:59

Sherrystrull
They never realise teachers miss ALL school events for their own kids to ensure that their kids have the opportunity.

JohnofWessex · 27/05/2024 11:00

Hum............

On the one hand there is a point that schools are not childcare.

On the other hand parents make arrangements - usually around employment assuming that they will be open. If they are not without notice then I think its reasonable that they may be unhappy.

Some years ago my childrens school had an inset day at short notice over Christmas. I took the head to task pointing out that my wife & I both had to book leave in advance over the Christmas period and the notice was given long after when we were able to submit our leave requests.

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:04

@RheaRend I’d expect schools to give adequate notice so time off can be booked. Often they don’t - then the feeling is you are trapped between a rock and a hard place. Also, I have experienced the immense disapproval and judgement if you are not able to make it. This seems to be passed on to the kids. Mummy couldn’t be bothered. Not that Mummy asked her boss for time off for Sports Day and the boss said No, if you want to work you can’t expect time off for these things.

TheMoth · 27/05/2024 11:09

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:04

@RheaRend I’d expect schools to give adequate notice so time off can be booked. Often they don’t - then the feeling is you are trapped between a rock and a hard place. Also, I have experienced the immense disapproval and judgement if you are not able to make it. This seems to be passed on to the kids. Mummy couldn’t be bothered. Not that Mummy asked her boss for time off for Sports Day and the boss said No, if you want to work you can’t expect time off for these things.

It wouldn't have mattered how much time I was given in advance- my school wouldn't have let me have any time off to go and watch my kids in anything. The only time I every managed it was when my holidays were different to theirs (very common, as I work across the border).

We all survived. The guilt goes. Their dad occasionally managed a sports day. Luckily, nativities had an evening performance too.

Redlocks28 · 27/05/2024 11:18

I could never go to one of my child’s sports day-I didn’t see any disapproval or judgement. It was pretty common for working parents-expecially those of us who were teachers who can’t book annual leave,

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:24

Well of course if you are a teacher that is seen as Important. If you do some other job you are seen as not bothering to go and support your child.

spanieleyes · 27/05/2024 11:26

By who?

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:27

By the teachers! Seroiusly, I remember one of my mum friends being bad-mouthed in my presence by a teacher for not attending a school event. She was very hard-working and it was difficult for her to get the time.

RheaRend · 27/05/2024 11:29

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:04

@RheaRend I’d expect schools to give adequate notice so time off can be booked. Often they don’t - then the feeling is you are trapped between a rock and a hard place. Also, I have experienced the immense disapproval and judgement if you are not able to make it. This seems to be passed on to the kids. Mummy couldn’t be bothered. Not that Mummy asked her boss for time off for Sports Day and the boss said No, if you want to work you can’t expect time off for these things.

I'm sure the odd last minute thing can't be helped. The rest are planned in advance and shared in multiple ways - texts, website, facebook, newsletter. However you do have to read these. We hear that all the time that we didn't give notice. We can also check who has read the texts and emails which is kind of helpful when parents use that excuse.

Nope it isn't passed onto the kids. Your assumption and guilt is not the same. You are feeling bad and assume that and so you want someone to blame. The teachers do not care who turns up and who doesn't. They know parents work - they are usually parents who work themselves who have less flexibility than most.

No shit sherlock - what do you think teachers do when their kids are having a day like a sports day? Just leave their class and go?

Redlocks28 · 27/05/2024 11:36

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:27

By the teachers! Seroiusly, I remember one of my mum friends being bad-mouthed in my presence by a teacher for not attending a school event. She was very hard-working and it was difficult for her to get the time.

Not something I have ever noticed in 25+ years of working in schools or being a mum. Loads of parents could and couldn’t come to sports days/performances/assemblies-I have never heard any negative comments. Of my two close school mum friends-one is a nurse and another works for customs and excise, both were there at events sometimes and not others-depending on what they could wangle.

TorringtonDean · 27/05/2024 11:45

Never noticed any bad-mouthing of working mums, eh? And yet there are a lot of comments here saying parents should just change careers and work more flexibly etc. Do you know how hard it is to do this and still provide a decent standard of living for your kids? In 25+ years of parenting I’ve not figured it out yet!

riceuten · 27/05/2024 11:57

This whole thread reminds me of a parent who posted here that schools should operate 48 weeks a year to match people’s annual leave entitlement (head/hands). And then proceeded to slag teachers off as lazy. No prizes for guessing who they have been voting for.

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