To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

Some of us do think the two tier state system should go.

But apparently it’s a beacon for social mobility (spoiler alert - it isn’t and hasn’t been since the 1950s).

It won’t go but with this policy you’ll get higher inaccessibility to best state

But apparently it’s a beacon for social mobility (spoiler alert - it isn’t and hasn’t been since the 1950s).

So, DH and I grew up broke on northern estates. My DC go to a private school. The eldest is a straight 9 GCSE student and predicted 3 A/A* in maths and sciences. Second child is similar. They are also very talented at sports and music. They are probably going to get very good jobs based on their qualifications and work ethic.

So, in one generation, we’ve changed the circumstances of our family.

How’s this not social mobility? Also, why is making this option harder for us, a WC family trying to better our lot, an example of improving social mobility?

Anecdotal. Most research suggests that working class kids don’t get a look in. And you can be middle class and living in very straitened circumstances. We all know the advantage of cultural capital. And you aren’t wc if you send your kids to private school, let’s be honest 😂
I’m working class btw, grew up in the north, parents council estate kids. My ds also got 10 GCSEs, all 9s apart from a single 8. His work ethic is amazing. His best friend is a the son of a single parent immigrant mum on NMW. He lives in one of the poorest areas of our northern town. He did just as well. They go to an ordinary state school that requires improvement. So social mobility can happen anywhere but excluding the huge majority of kids from a decent education doesn’t provide it any more.

The post you’re quoting was saying grammar school is not a beacon of social mobility (and it’s not really these days with expensive tutoring often employed to ensure that the little darlings get a place), not that social mobility doesn’t exist. Examples like yours are generally the exception rather than the rule, though.

‘Little darlings’ is

But you are and pp are half way there. You get that parents take the best state via funds but not that the policy will make that issue worse.

The policy won’t help, it’ll just cause greater competition and more of what you describe

Let’s be honest you’re not a parent with privately educated kids are you. What’s your skin in the game ? Just that your kids might not get into one of the ‘best’ state schools because of competition from kids whose parents can no longer afford private school…that it ? Or is it just you don’t like the LP ?
What’s your opinion on national service for your little ones ? Another populist policy but it doesn’t seem to wind you up as much. Funny that.

This is just rubbish. What are you on about

Who is rant at?

You are reacting to comments on a poor policy that will increase competition for the best state.

Various posters have said they see the problem they just can’t take one step further and see that it will get worse

Get angry and insult if it helps, it won’t make the outcomes better

Agree, discussions amongst our friends at the moment is largely about how to reduce tax bills. Also, moving to catchment areas for grammar school.

The chair of the governors has already outlined some thoughts to reduce our prep school overheads. First will be removing bursaries and ensuring every place is paid in full. Second will be renting school facilities at market rate, rather than allowing local schools to use them for free/subsidised. They’ve already started marketing to host conferences/weddings/parties during the school holidays.

Fees from year 7 seem to start at £28/34k per child in the local area. Add an average 5% increase per year, plus VAT. Grammar school is now something we’re considering.

The grammar system has been well studied since the 1950s, and the evidence is clear that it doesn’t promote social mobility.

You haven’t said whether you or your DH went to a grammar (maybe not given grammars were generally phased out in the 1960s and the north wasn’t one of the areas where LAs clung on to them), so I don’t know what point you’re making.

I could add my own anecdotes about attending a crappy secondary school, being the first generation to go to uni and how successful my DC are but I’m not sure that’s going to add anything particularly meaningful.

We are not wealthy by any means. Just 2 regular jobs forced to pay privately. Private school was never on our radar, never even crossed our minds. However, our daughter was being bullied at the local state secondary school for wanting to do well with her studies. We couldn’t even get her through the school gates anymore her anxiety was horrendous.

Now in the local private school absolutely loves it and now has 100% attendance, we will struggle paying the extra but we will have to find it as we are not letting her future down like the state school did.

If they are going to stop doing things then they really need to also take a look at if they are meeting the criteria to be a charity (assuming they are) as to be a charity they have to show public benefit and education alone to fee payers is not enough. They could de register and not be a charity of course

Both private schools that our kids attend have already said they are cutting bursary places and severing all relationships with the local schools that included science lab days, use of the pool, sports days etc. Neither school is a charity so they're not in danger of losing their status. It's a shame that Labours plan isn't to level up the state schools and foster closer collaboration with private schools in the meantime. We need more net contributors and state schools simply don't produce them at nearly the rate as private schools.

The rich poor divide is one of the biggest issues for happy successful societies. The more all the children can access anything they want the better. Who wants to give a child the best start if it ends with them being advantaged over kids that had none. No wants Russia/ China/ California

The cost argument is bollocks. It's like the smokers pay for the NHS argument. They might but it's still better if no one smokes.

@Thepatioisready
But this logic applies to anything any good parent does for their children? Reading to our children, healthy food, facilitating hobbies, having a parent work part-time, a nice house etc (many of which confer just as much advantage as private school if not more and which correlate strongly with wealth). Are we meant to adopt a parenting style where we think about what’s best for our children and then only give it to them if every other child has the same? And in the context of schools ensure that they have at best an average education? This is the very definition of levelling down. And realistically no parent thinks like that or would be encouraged to except in the context of private education.

Educating your child at what you believe to be an excellent school isn’t really equivalent to throwing them a packet of cigarettes- not for the child and not for society.

Its another poorly thought through Labour policy.

Our local Independent school has already made it clear, they will be reducing bursaries and no longer be subsidising facilities that the local state schools use ... playing fields, swimming pool, science labs etc. They also have 'saturday refresher' classes for pupils. Unused places were available to local state school students FOC. Those will also be withdrawn unless parents are prepared to pay.

The school also owns manages the local sports complex with membership open to the public. Those fees will also be going up.

They also have overseas sister schools and have started actively promoting those options to overseas students as an alternative to UK based education. So they will still generate the revenues, just not in the UK.

Are they a charity? If so then then to keep there charitable status they have to do things that show public benefit, and educating fee paying children alone isn’t enough to prove this. If they lose charitable status then in additional to the vat they’d need to pay corporation tax on any surplus they make. I know schools don’t make a profit as such as all money goes back into the school but they will most likely make a taxable profit as an element of their fees will be used for capital expenditure on buildings and this is not deductible in calculating corporation tax. Labour were also on about not allowing charitable status for private schools anymore but they seem to have scrapped that policy now

The overseas branches aren’t generally very well thought of though are they?

The whole point of a UK public school education for certain overseas people is sending their children to the prestigious 18th century pile to make connections with the UK establishment.

A new school with the right name but crap entrance requirements doesn’t really cut the mustard.

It’s no surprise a 20% tax will do that

It would on any sector. People just get more excited when dc are caught up in the damage.

Tbf there are probably private users welcoming the tax to ensure private can be more elite.

Hence the responses to pp with dc with SEN on this thread that they can just move to state.

I’m not envious. I chose private education for several years before we moved. I agree with the VAT.

It won’t cost the tax payer because the vast majority of private school parents CAN and will afford the increase. Some may need to make sacrifices - one less holiday or a less expensive holiday. Less expensive car. Wife could get a job or increase hours, could sell the holiday home etc. when I think of the other parents in our old school even the least well off could manage with effort - so the least well off family in our year, wife works part time in a role that requires less than her qualifications. She chose that to have a better work/life balance. She could get a better paid job or more hours easily. They could downgrade their cars.

If there are children who are suddenly taken out of private school it will be a minimal number.

But there a lot of parents at private school who don’t have all the things you mention. Because that’s your experience at one school doesn’t mean that all are the same. In fact, in can differ from year to year. My oldest DC’s year in prep was very different to my youngest’s. In my youngest’s year most of the mums work full time already. There’s a wide range of cars - our’s is 12 years old and up for sale if you’re interested at the bargain price of £2k. We’ve got to sell it as it’s not ULEZ compliant otherwise we would stick with it until it dies. I only know of one person with a holiday home. I can’t speak for everyone regarding holidays but we’ve cut back since our mortgage increased. If we go anywhere it’s with the Avios points I earn on my credit card. Managed to get flights for the four of us for £50 in total at Easter so that was good.

If you can afford private fees you’re not doing badly. I’ve got an 10 years + old car, not been abroad for years, always worked 30 hours +, no fancy restaurants. Like most we can’t afford it.
Blame tories for the parlous state of the economy. For the increase in CoL and mortgage interest rates. That’s why Labour have to find funds from somewhere to improve the public sector that most of us are dependent upon.
Were you happy that Libraries and Sure starts were shut under Cameron, along with youth clubs, Connexions, public services stripped ? Did that bother you ? Loads of schools have had to make TAs redundant and cancel enrichment activities already. Did you protest about that. Frankly it’s a bit hypocritical bemoaning how poor kids will be pushed out of decent schools because of an influx of formerly privately educated ones. They’ve already been suffering. For years.

The problem with this policy is that in the short to medium term it will NOT raise funds and will cause bulge classes in state schools. The opposite of what you seem to believe it will do.
It may do in the long term but you are f**king with the education of a lot of kids before you get there (current private and state).

I don't think being against this means you support the Tories! That is a leap.