Page 26 | To think that those private school parents banging on about their fees

Thegreatergoodgerald · 2024-05-23T10:23:30+00:00

Seriously have misjudged how little anyone else gives a stuff??? NHS, social care, state education, public transport, bloody potholes everywhere - that’s what matters to everyone I know. Not whether or not VAT is added to a business. YANBU - it’s hardly the end of the world if Clemmie or Charles end up going to a state school. We have bigger things to worry about in the U.K. right now YABU - of course everyone cares private school parents might have to pay more

JimBobsWife · 23/05/2024 18:20

And I am genuinely interested in hearing how this policy is going to improve state schools but apart from 6500 more teachers being recruited (which in itself is not automatically going to improve state schools), I have heard nothing from Labour.

crumblingschools · 23/05/2024 18:21

@ForlornLindtBear but going forward that won’t be an issue as a number of these pupils won’t have been at Prep if parents take them out after increase in fees

Spendonsend · 23/05/2024 18:22

Wishihadanalgorithm · 23/05/2024 18:08

On a slightly different note (but hopefully still relevant to the OP), how much money does the Dep for Education need to bring state schools up the standard they should be?

How much will the VAT on school fees bring in to meet that need?

From having worked in state and indie I think the VAT is going to be a drop in the ocean and a whole lot more money will be required.

Friends in various state schools tell me the horror stories which are their lives on a daily basis - and I wish this was an exaggeration. A total overhaul is needed and that’s very brave for anyone to do.

One big issue with education is that the teachers’ pension scheme is just so expensive (and I’ve heard it’s going up again) so staff cost schools so much. This is one of the reasons education is just such a never end hole to be filled. What can Labour do about this?

I do wonder is VAT on private ed just a vote winner for the politics of envy?

They say the VAT is specifically to recruit 6500 teachers and for employing a member of mental health staff in every school.

There other plans for education seem quite limited. They mention breakfast clubs, and increasing arts, music and sport by changing accountability measures and then supporting apprentiships. Then i saw a statement about reviewing the curriculumn.

The manifesto might give more detail but it doesnt seem that there will be much funding change overall.

crumblingschools · 23/05/2024 18:23

@JimBobsWife and where are they going to get these additional teachers from? Needs to be serious overhaul of education system to make it more attractive to future teachers

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 18:23

Ifyoucouldreadmymindlove · 23/05/2024 17:02

It won’t happen. It won’t happen because the majority of parents of private school kids are largely ‘normal’, and so they’ll just pull their children out of the school and then the local schools will explode and the system won’t cope. Those who can afford to keep their children in private likely will and will be largely unaffected.

All it will do is fuck up an already struggling state education.

Of course it will happen. It’s a key manifesto policy. 🙄

PrincessTeaSet · 23/05/2024 18:23

AIstolemylunch · 23/05/2024 18:12

god this is the most ridiculous post I have seen yet. Do you think private school parents are all so dim that they don't understand how contextual offers work? Do you think that there are no kids from private schools that benefit from contextual offers? Of course there are.

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I frequently read on here that private school students are discriminated against when they apply to university, so it is a commonly held view. The parents aren't dim but they have just heard something and not bothered to find out more about it.

Contextual offers are for students from the postcodes with the lowest university entrance. They are often targeted at particular schools in these areas too. Usually they are pretty deprived areas. Of course there may be the odd private school student who happens to get in but it's certainly not the aim. Contextual offers are a small minority of all offers. Most state school pupils don't get them either.

Goldenbear · 23/05/2024 18:25

JustOneDD · 23/05/2024 18:18

I really would like to understand what you mean and I’m not wanting to sound argumentative at all. Are you saying that there should be no gap in quality of teaching? There should be no gap in quality of facilities? There should be no gap in extracurricular activities? Is it that you want everyone to have the same quality of teaching regardless of whether that means it’s bad because then you think it will be an equal playing field? Because that won’t be true when school leavers are competing with others from other countries. It also doesn’t take into account all the parents that pay a huge premium to live in a catchment area of an outstanding school and then pay for extracurricular activities and tutoring separately to get into grammar schools. Do you think that paying for any type of “advantage” should be taxed so tutoring should be subject to VAT? If you think that everyone is entitled to a certain standard of education then why is that standard not being targeted by everyone paying more for it? And if a certain level of education should be funded by the state, why does the government not fund independent schools as well at the same level of all children in the state system if their parents are UK resident? Why not just tax those things that are over and above a standard level of education and becomes a “luxury” effectively. If raising the standard of education for all is the aim this policy will not achieve that and the most obvious losers will be those who have had to sacrifice other things to send their child or children to independent schools will no longer be able to do so and some independent schools will close meaning increased pressure on some state schools.

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We don’t all pay a huge premium, it is a lottery system where I am and it makes no odds if you pay a huge premium, have a nice house but don’t expect it to get you entry to the best schools!

Xenia · 23/05/2024 18:25

It is the politics of envy. To the extent it raises any money at all it will just be wasted by the huge state.

ForlornLindtBear · 23/05/2024 18:27

crumblingschools · 23/05/2024 18:21

@ForlornLindtBear but going forward that won’t be an issue as a number of these pupils won’t have been at Prep if parents take them out after increase in fees

Then they will have even less chance of getting into the grammars.

MyNameIsFine · 23/05/2024 18:27

So start a thread about potholes, OP. Whose stopping you? 💁

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 18:27

Xenia · 23/05/2024 18:25

It is the politics of envy. To the extent it raises any money at all it will just be wasted by the huge state.

Because the current Tory state is tiny and the current government never wastes a penny. Heard of Rwanda @Xenia?

Persephonegoddess · 23/05/2024 18:28

So is the VAT that is going to be charged going to be more money than the state education cost of the one child? Because unless the net VAT gained to government is more than the cost of educating the child( which the government currently does NOT pay) how will any funds be generated?

morechocolateneededtoday · 23/05/2024 18:28

Wishihadanalgorithm · 23/05/2024 18:08

On a slightly different note (but hopefully still relevant to the OP), how much money does the Dep for Education need to bring state schools up the standard they should be?

How much will the VAT on school fees bring in to meet that need?

From having worked in state and indie I think the VAT is going to be a drop in the ocean and a whole lot more money will be required.

Friends in various state schools tell me the horror stories which are their lives on a daily basis - and I wish this was an exaggeration. A total overhaul is needed and that’s very brave for anyone to do.

One big issue with education is that the teachers’ pension scheme is just so expensive (and I’ve heard it’s going up again) so staff cost schools so much. This is one of the reasons education is just such a never end hole to be filled. What can Labour do about this?

I do wonder is VAT on private ed just a vote winner for the politics of envy?

The bottom line is teachers are expensive because they are highly skilled and in very high demand. Until the government are prepared to put their hand in their pocket and pay for the skills, they are not going to be able to recruit or retain and the problem will continue.

They need to improve the pay to not only attract bright graduates into the profession but also progression to keep them there. Tories have pissed money up the wall by doing the former without the latter so they spend a fortune on training for them to leave within the first 2 years. We’ve already lost so many experienced teachers.

The VAT debacle is not going to cut it - I’ll be gobsmacked if they’ve made any money 10 years after implementing it.

Serious investment in staffing of public services is needed to fix the current mess - starting with retention of current staff and improving their conditions. Not all the other fluff they are advertising. It is such a shame that labour can’t see this (Tories are utterly useless and never would have seen this)

Parsley1234 · 23/05/2024 18:29

@JustOneDD yep this
@xenia total politics of envy
this stupid proposal makes me so angry it’s completely a race to the bottom. Blair got rid of assisted places but his children got in by faith place preference.
how much would I love to see how many labour politicians pay for private education

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 23/05/2024 18:30

Xenia · 23/05/2024 18:25

It is the politics of envy. To the extent it raises any money at all it will just be wasted by the huge state.

Do you know what I’m just going to say it.

I would be really happy to pay more tax and part with more money if it actually meant equality and therefore a better society.

But it’s not about that. It would be throwing money at a black hole. There is a huge % of the population who are a drain - they don’t work, they’re not even capable of it, they have endless ‘needs’ and no amount of cash we spend on them would make a difference.

All that would happen would be everyone dragged down and society functioning even less than it does now because at least private schools contribute by producing a higher proportion of well educated individuals who will work as our doctors, lawyers, scientists and so on.

Until there is radical change in what we are prepared to tolerate from members of the public, and the degree of responsibility they should take for their own lives, I simply can’t agree to damaging kids education to spend money on them.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 23/05/2024 18:30

Soukmyfalafel · 23/05/2024 13:25

I can see why a change might be disruptive and annoying to them, but us plebs who are the rest of the population have had all manner of shit to deal with. I've had to battle for a year just to get my son (who has very severe autism and is non-verbal) from a mainstream to a special school. Some kids are out of education completely due to this. I genuinely think some of these posters don't think people like my son deserves a school place, as he will never be a lawyer or a doctor. It has always been difficult with getting SEN provision, but it has deteriorated significantly under the Conservatives.

I think it says a lot that it is all they seem to care about. Ditto for the 'Labour doesn't know what a women is' brigade (who are probably the same people). Nobody cares, bigger shit to deal with.

Multiple threads trying to convince people to vote Tory so their kids can be privately educated is coming across as desperate and ranty, but I can understand some of the anger if your child is happy where they are and that could change.

A lot of comprehensives have grammar streams now too, as well as grammar schools, so I don't think there will be loads of places taken up by ex-privately educated kids. Scare tactics (a favourite of Sunak) don't work, when the biggest thing most people fear is the status quo and nothing changing.

So how would you like it if you were told that your child is moving back to mainstream in September because their school is now closing?

I reckon you'd be slightly miffed.

That is the reality facing thousands of SEN parents in small non-elitist private schools... only, unlike you, they're paying for it rather than the state.

And parent's like me with a SEN child in a state comprehensive who gets ZERO support because resources are too stretched and they have hundreds of SEN kids in a worse position than DD are obviously over the moon that what little provision we might be hoping for is definitely not going to happen when a lot more SEN kids arrive.

AlwaysMeDoing · 23/05/2024 18:31

MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 23/05/2024 12:23

I see the private school mamas are out in force on this thread now.

Yet to see a single argument that will persuade me.

I see the private school mamas are out in force on this thread now.

Given the thread title, what did you expect?!

yellowridinghood · 23/05/2024 18:33

morechocolateneededtoday · 23/05/2024 18:28

The bottom line is teachers are expensive because they are highly skilled and in very high demand. Until the government are prepared to put their hand in their pocket and pay for the skills, they are not going to be able to recruit or retain and the problem will continue.

They need to improve the pay to not only attract bright graduates into the profession but also progression to keep them there. Tories have pissed money up the wall by doing the former without the latter so they spend a fortune on training for them to leave within the first 2 years. We’ve already lost so many experienced teachers.

The VAT debacle is not going to cut it - I’ll be gobsmacked if they’ve made any money 10 years after implementing it.

Serious investment in staffing of public services is needed to fix the current mess - starting with retention of current staff and improving their conditions. Not all the other fluff they are advertising. It is such a shame that labour can’t see this (Tories are utterly useless and never would have seen this)

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I think investment in pupil referral units is key. Get violence out of schools. Make teaching a more attractive career. Who wants to go to work to get punched, kicked and spat at?

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 18:33

No school’s going to close in September @OhCrumbsWhereNow. That’s just alarmist shit.

PrincessTeaSet · 23/05/2024 18:34

coupdetonnerre · 23/05/2024 17:03

Only the very wealthy who won't feel the pinch. If you have 2 children paying 30K per year, that's an additional 24K bill. Unless you are super wealthy most people will not afford to shell out this. So it leaves very very wealthy people making private schools even more exclusive

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Vat is only 20% so the increase will be 12k on 60k of fees

MidnightMusing5 · 23/05/2024 18:34

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 23/05/2024 11:26

I don’t think they expect you to give a stuff. But they’re entitled to give a stuff about their own lives, like everyone.

This.

Also people in most of the world couldn’t give a stuff about your cost of living crisis woes. At least you have a car drive , access to free medical care etc etc .

I’m sure they’d tell you to bore off .

Halfheadhighlights · 23/05/2024 18:34

User2460177 · 23/05/2024 15:24

You find it funny that parents are worried about being able to afford their kids education?

As I said, I’m considering private for my daughter who has SEN as many do. I’m worried I might not be able to afford it (I’m a single mum). But you find that funny?

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Yes. The privileged minority can see what it’s like to worry about not being able to afford bills. Private schooling is not essential, unlike food or heating. Welcome to the real world

Runor · 23/05/2024 18:35

The families I feel sorry for are those with kids whose SEN aren’t addressed in their local state school, and who have scrimped to get them a place at a school which can help. Sad for the kids, sad for the parents, and probably not great for the kids at the school they end up at :-(

Beansticks · 23/05/2024 18:36

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 23/05/2024 18:30

So how would you like it if you were told that your child is moving back to mainstream in September because their school is now closing?

I reckon you'd be slightly miffed.

That is the reality facing thousands of SEN parents in small non-elitist private schools... only, unlike you, they're paying for it rather than the state.

And parent's like me with a SEN child in a state comprehensive who gets ZERO support because resources are too stretched and they have hundreds of SEN kids in a worse position than DD are obviously over the moon that what little provision we might be hoping for is definitely not going to happen when a lot more SEN kids arrive.

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But a lot more SEN kids are not going to arrive. There are very few that are privately educated, the vast majority will stay and the ones that leave which will be tiny( at best 1 or 2 per school) will apparently be hoovering up grammar places. Now it’s SEN. Aren’t any private kids just average?

Wishihadanalgorithm · 23/05/2024 18:36

Spendonsend · 23/05/2024 18:22

They say the VAT is specifically to recruit 6500 teachers and for employing a member of mental health staff in every school.

There other plans for education seem quite limited. They mention breakfast clubs, and increasing arts, music and sport by changing accountability measures and then supporting apprentiships. Then i saw a statement about reviewing the curriculumn.

The manifesto might give more detail but it doesnt seem that there will be much funding change overall.

Show quote history

@Spendonsend

But so many teachers are leaving and so few people are applying for PGCEs - my friend works in a university on a Science PGCE and says numbers are ridiculously low. He’s even been sent to work on the Primary PGCE as there was no work for him. I don’t know how this can be reversed!

I know that currently people are passing the PGCE who aren’t good enough but the numbers of warm bodies in classrooms are needed.

VAT isn’t going to magic up the people required.