To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

[Futurascope]

Possibly controversial…,

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-14/one-in-three-councils-not-confident-they-can-provide-basic-adult-social-care

“The fears about meeting the legal requirements come despite eight out of 10 councils forecasting having to cut spending on other community services such as parks, libraries and leisure centres to try to protect funding”.

So - libraries, leisure centres, parks, all vital for young children, families and others - being closed because the elderly desperately need social care.

As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?

No one is saying kill anyone off. Merely that there is inadequate resource to fund everyone. Some people miss out. Those who have lived a full and long life have had their turn. And elderly people are so, so, so expensive in healthcare terms. I would not want to be kept alive at 85 while 50 year olds are immobile and out of work waiting for knee operations.

@BeetyAxe
Exactly what you said.

🤣

what a way to go though.

Are you in that position? I was and still am. I've had to wait years for my hips and knee replacements. Ask me if I begrudge the 90 year old woman who was on her feet quicker than me when I was in hospital after waiting for 2 years with a brace because her hip kept dislocating. Should she have just been left?

I haven’t RTFT but the situation seemed simple when presented by Theresa May. You buy a care insurance policy that costs £70-ish which would cover you should you need care. Seems sensible and fair.

£70kish I meant

That you start paying into when? When you're born? Because I was diagnosed with my disability at the age of 16. So would I be covered? Doubtful.

What used to happened to my relative with a DNR and a “no extraordinary measures attitude” was that they’d have a bit of a turn in the evenings when inevitably the more senior staff had gone home, so an ambulance would be called, the quickest way for the paramedics (and the care home) to make it someone else’s problem was to ship them off to A and E, despite the fact that they wanted no treatment. Then it was nearly always an awful time in the hospital before they were returned to the home a few days later in a worse condition than they went in. We found refusing treatment wasn’t at all easy to do. They’re afraid of being sued for something I suppose!

The care home staff may call an ambulance, that is down to the care home policy. But there will not be any aggressive treatment by the hospital. The issue is the care home, not the NHS.

So 85 is when we start killing people? Or presumably if you need any healthcare after 85 you are refused on the NHS?
Nice to have a number for a change. My 97 year old gran who was still mobile until her last month alive would have died then. I am sure her great grandchildren would have understood she was just a useless waste of resources.

85 is an age when you accept that palliation is enough and chemo, organ transplants, hip replacements are not proportionate.

You don't seem to understand this is a conversation about how to use finite resources. Not "getting rid of oldies".

The infrastructure needs to be changed to accommodate the ageing population. Not the other way round!
The ageing population argument is identical to the immigration argument.

I agree tbh.

There’s an enormous middle ground between acknowledging a procedure costing tens of thousands of pounds for an already frail 91 year old is disproportionate and then ‘killing people’.

I think you know that.

Ok and will you be front of the queue to take some shifts as a care worker?

A relative of my husband's was bed bound with advanced dementia for four years. A friend's granny had a stroke, could no longer speak and was bed bound for ten years.

What on earth was the point? People are not advocating killing the elderly off when they reach 80, but we shouldn't be prolonging life when there is absolutely no point in it. In fact in the latter case above I'd say it is actively cruel. At least my husband's relative didn't know what was going on.

I think it depends on what hasn't been given.

My father had Parkinsons and had a fall and never walked again. But I think the reason for that was the fact that he had no physio and was left to stiffen up in a hospital bed. Once he was discharged, he was bedbound until he died. I do think if he had had physio things might have been different. Now people might say that physio is a finite resource and needs to go on the working aged population and I think that's fair. But they also need to consider whether spending the time on some physio would have left him still able to walk and look after himself and therefore save six months of care home bills. Maybe he would have fallen again, but maybe he would have died before that happened.

I think writing off the reasonably well elderly can be a false economy. But when someone has advanced dementia and no quality of life, they should be allowed to fade away.

@ChristmasGutPunch what a foolish question to ask, as if it is in any way a valid response to my argument. I could be a carer already, I could be volunteering for Age UK, I could be disabled and have a carer myself, I could be 19 or 90...

People who are bed bound with dementia are living their own reality, one that we do not understand. It does not mean they are sub-human or not worth the effort which seems to be the attitude of any posts.

I am currently in the midst of a what is the point dilemma.
My mum is 81, extremely frail with copd and diagnosed with clinical anorexia. She is now in a care home and only able to move with a zimmer and when she does Dan only go 20 feet before needing to stop as she is so breathless. She has a DNR and when she has an infection needs serious high levels of antibiotics to knock it on the head and some of these now fail.
anyway she fell over at the weekend and broke her hip, but we were amazed at the readiness the nhs were willing to mend her hip. To be honest it is really unlikely she is ever going to regain mobility even with major rehab as she doesn’t eat, weighs 27kg and has no muscle strength.
I love her dearly but can’t help thinking what a waste of resources…. And I feel bad saying that but there wasn’t any discussion. Think everyone is so scared of broaching these difficult issues.

You have a vested interest, so of course you’d rather children like your son drain the taxpayer.
The older tax payer drains cannot be killed off so if previously independent 80 year old Mabel breaks her hip and remains cared for in bed until she dies - who will ensure she is washed and brought food? Shall we let her starve to death?

(Edit to add - “tax payer drains” is sarcasm in case my tone is misread!)

Fucking hell. That's sick. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

I think when you get older you see more suffering and become more pragmatic.

I help look after a much loved uncle. Mid 80s

He has been in agony for months since his GP diagnosed a broken bone in his back as arthritis.

He has been admitted to hospital 3 times and each time sent home without his pain being managed beyond a six.

They discharged him on Friday and he hasn’t gone to bed or eaten since.

His stomach is distended from impaction which the hospital should have sorted. This impaction puts pressure on his lower spine which adds to the pain.

He has an inoperable brain tumour and severe headaches.

He sits in his chair bent over forwards all day and cannot get into his bed.

If the health services were perfect he would still suffer.

Pain killers kill the pain and cause constipation which causes impaction.

Every day he is in agony. He does not want to go on.

For those who are now going to dispense medical advice I say don’t bother.

Nothing you say or fantasise (ie a really caring system) will come to fruition.

Why do people want others to suffer?

That is unusual. People that are bed bound usually die from pneumonia.
People on nursing care homes only have a 12 months life expectancy.