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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that people living longer is making quality of life for everyone worse?

640 replies

Futurascope · 14/05/2024 22:04

Possibly controversial…,

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-14/one-in-three-councils-not-confident-they-can-provide-basic-adult-social-care

“The fears about meeting the legal requirements come despite eight out of 10 councils forecasting having to cut spending on other community services such as parks, libraries and leisure centres to try to protect funding”.

So - libraries, leisure centres, parks, all vital for young children, families and others - being closed because the elderly desperately need social care.

As awful as it is for us all individually to lose somebody that we love….. is curing every disease, and having us all live to 100 really a good thing if it is at the expense of quality of life for the rest of society?

OP posts:
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Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 13:13

JL690 · 21/05/2024 08:51

Is it the choice of the person involved. I don't think so. You only have to look at Canada to see that anyone who is not economically productive is made to feel like it is their duty to commit suicide. Down on your luck, off you go. Living rough, off you go etc. Unless you are one of the elite, of course. That is the danger we face.

You can't make anyone agree to assisted dying though .

People are under pressure for stuff all the time. Doesn't mean they need to agree to it

JL690 · 21/05/2024 13:17

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 13:13

You can't make anyone agree to assisted dying though .

People are under pressure for stuff all the time. Doesn't mean they need to agree to it

So nobody has ever buckled under pressure, or from being bullied?

Againname · 21/05/2024 13:52

JL690 · 21/05/2024 13:17

So nobody has ever buckled under pressure, or from being bullied?

This

An illusion of choice isn't a choice. If someone is forced into a position where the only other 'choice' is extreme deprivation without the help they need and deserve (eventually causing death but by starvation or lack of basic medical needs) then it's not a choice.

I would like there to be a true choice regarding assisted suicide, but agree with other posters about concerns over people being 'encouraged' to 'choose' it through abusive means. The current Benefits and Elderly Bashing climate doesn't inspire confidence. I really hope there's a way to resolve this that ensues compassion for everyone, because it's cruel to deny the true choice but equally wrong to have a system where for some people it's the lesser of evils (and not a truly free choice).

Againname · 21/05/2024 13:58

I'm yet another one who thinks @MistressoftheDarkSide's post is excellent

Rosscameasdoody · 21/05/2024 18:25

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 13:13

You can't make anyone agree to assisted dying though .

People are under pressure for stuff all the time. Doesn't mean they need to agree to it

The biggest worry as far as I can see is that if assisted dying were made legal, LPA or parental responsibility could end up conferring the right to end the lives of those who cannot advocate for themselves or have lost the capacity to do so. That’s a terrifying thought.

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 21:56

Rosscameasdoody · 21/05/2024 18:25

The biggest worry as far as I can see is that if assisted dying were made legal, LPA or parental responsibility could end up conferring the right to end the lives of those who cannot advocate for themselves or have lost the capacity to do so. That’s a terrifying thought.

Yes it is. Hence people need to have advance directives to stop NOKor others pulling such stunts

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 21/05/2024 22:22

Doctors are best placed to continue taking responsibility for end of life care. I couldn't trust anyone else with it. Certainly not the children in some families, looking at some of the threads on here. And ffs, never a government. Just look at the list, of which the infected blood scandal is just the latest.

Rosscameasdoody · 22/05/2024 18:19

SchoolQuestionnaire · 18/05/2024 16:35

This really.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that we stop caring for elderly people. But I do think we need to look at how we continue to fund this care because the current system wasn’t created for a population that live this long. It’s becoming increasingly unrealistic to expect triple lock pensions and free care for life. Yes we all ‘pay in’ but very few of us contribute enough to cover our care as we age. I think it’s right that people pay for their own care homes if required and I certainly don’t think it’s unreasonable to discuss future planning and perhaps even means-tested pensions. Although I very much doubt there’s a politician in the country brave enough to do this.

You think it’s reasonable to look at how we fund the care, and to start means testing the state pension, while the super rich are enjoying their yachts and leaving us all to pick up the crumbs they leave behind ? How about abandoning the dystopian view of the future and advocating for a fair redistribution of resources so that everyone has what they need. The Tories would be proud of this thread. Divide and rule is alive and well.

kerstina · 22/05/2024 18:30

YABVU if our council hadn’t hosted the Commonwealth games ( if they couldn’t afford it ?) and paid out extreme amounts of money for the equal pay out then there might not be having to cut services like libraries but old vulnerable people should always be put first and we shouldn’t be seeing them as a burden. Isn’t that how we tell how we are a civilised society?

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 22/05/2024 18:50

To be fair in my case it’s worked out for my benefit as I get more coverage by services as people struggling with my condition are 80% over 65.
but, it also seems awfully unfair as getting services for children in my borough are nigh on impossible.

SchoolQuestionnaire · 22/05/2024 20:11

Rosscameasdoody · 22/05/2024 18:19

You think it’s reasonable to look at how we fund the care, and to start means testing the state pension, while the super rich are enjoying their yachts and leaving us all to pick up the crumbs they leave behind ? How about abandoning the dystopian view of the future and advocating for a fair redistribution of resources so that everyone has what they need. The Tories would be proud of this thread. Divide and rule is alive and well.

You have completely misunderstood my point. As things stand, the super rich in this country have the right to claim a state pension. Do you think that’s right or just? I’m not saying that those in need shouldn’t receive a state pension but most of the elderly people in my orbit who claim a state pension are also in receipt of huge personal pensions and living a life of luxury. When I question this they tell me they have paid their taxes and they have a right to the money. Currently they do but I don’t necessarily agree that they should.

Re elderly care I think if one can pay one categorically should. We simply don’t have the money to support this number of elderly people. I count myself among that number. When the time comes I will not claim a state pension as I don’t need it and I fully expect to pay for my own care if required because I can. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable position but many people do and are outraged when they are asked to sell their home because what about the kids’ inheritance.

These issues are hugely emotive and I do understand why it’s difficult to discuss them. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t.

BIossomtoes · 23/05/2024 00:53

The people who are also “in receipt of huge personal pensions and living a life of luxury” will be paying most or all of their state pension back in tax so I wouldn’t worry too much about that if I were you. They’ll also be paying for their own care, whether it’s provided in their own home or a care home, regardless of how much they protest.

I think paying for care is absolutely right and I expect to do so but you’ll wrest my pension from my cold, dead hands. I paid into the system for 44 years on the promise of that pension.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 23/05/2024 07:51

I think the paying for care issue is particularly contentious for several reasons though.

Conditions like dementia and Parkinsons are medical conditions of an organic nature that eventually require a large degree of medical supervision and intervention. Yet they are treated as "social care" issues. When people are diagnosed, they may still have capacity, and are expected to frame their life going forward with the expectation that they will need care in the future so any assets they have should be regarded as for the purpose of paying for care down the line on pain of being accused of deprivation of assets later on.

Which is all good and well, except if they are at the lower end of the economic spectrum means that nearly every penny will be swallowed up really fast by care home fees when the time comes. Self funders essentially subsidise those without assets as care homes are businesses run for profit.

Those at the higher end of the economic scale will be in a position to arrange their finances to protect some of those assets and/or have enough to still pass on inheritance to offspring,while Mabel who lives in a depressed area, and whose right to buy council house hasn't leapt in value will be "allowed" to retain about £13,000.00 to pass on, tie up her affairs and bury her because the 150,000 it ended up being worth paid for perhaps two years care, and moving forward her entire state pension is also taken to partly pay for care.

In the current economy, inheritance is what gets some out of poverty and benefit traps and it's a model that has been encouraged economically with the cultural holy grail of home ownership, providing you with an asset to pass down.

If you are unlucky enough to be hit by the most wretched diseases of old age, you have to accept that the cost of your care will wipe out your hardwork and sacrifices in a breathtakingly short time leaving your family with enough to sort out your affairs and bury you but not much else.

The argument that no-one should expect an inheritance and should build their own security is very noble, but that's becoming harder for more people and is in contradiction with the way things have operated forever.

I'm not arguing that nobody should pay for care ever, but the current model is unfairly weighted against those with the least amount of money in the first place who did try to improve life for themselves and their families going forward, purely because they were unlucky enough to become ill.

Another argument is that families who want their inheritance should care for their elders at home, which some do. But it usually means a reduction in their income as it's a 24 hour job and thus another area of financial deprivation builds up with the added possibility of mis-steps in the CA department for example.

So then some will bring in the assisted dying debate. And that's a whole other can of emotive worms, which takes us into harrowing territory.

It's a pretty pickle indeed, isn't it, with so many issues.

And that's without touching on the fact that paid carers aren't paid nearly enough for the job they do, which is gruelling.

I know what I'm getting at, but have only just woken up so bear with me. I think what I'm saying is that it's another system that needs overhauling to at least level the field a bit for those whose tiny bit of something, that they pursued in the hope that they could improve their own and their families lot as they were encouraged to do doesn't completely vanish for the "crime" of misfortune in developing a disease.

Itsrainingten · 23/05/2024 09:02

@MistressoftheDarkSide I see what you're saying here and I do agree to a certain extent but then what? If we extend people's lives by treating cancer / infections / heart disease late in life then dementia is what will end up killing most people (because we all have to die of something). Unfortunately dementia is often a very slow , expensive death. People don't want to spend their own money on that care, society votes against the (very sensible in my opinion) idea of a "dementia tax" so what we're left with then is younger tax payers having to foot the bill for potentially years of round the clock care for MOST PEOPLE. And considering the ratio of working Vs people who need care is declining it just isn't workable. What do you suggest we do?

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii · 23/05/2024 09:37

Care should never have been privatised, care homes should not be for profit and home carers should be council ran. Example: in my area there are council carers and private carers, council carers are on about £2-3 per hour more than the private carers and have all the benefits of working for the council that goes with it. Another example, I am a community HCSW with district nurses, we are now filling gaps for home carers to some degree and are getting paid £14.50 to do the same job? Something isn’t right

but to some extent I do agree that keeping people alive beyond natural expiration is not right either. I don’t want to be kept alive if I get dementia for example and wouldn’t want cancer treatments if they are not curative which I see a lot of in the elderly. As for the hip replacement argument, how people recover entirely depends on the person themselves, I have worked with many many people who have had them after a fall and many take to their beds (the sick role) and don’t want to engage with physios or get out of bed and the longer that goes on the less likely they are to regain independence once home. It’s a very difficult area to gauge to be fair. I do think things will have to change though as others have pointed out as we simply do not have the bodies to provide care for the increasing elderly population and I do think AI will be the answer eventually whether wanted or not. They can do all the hands on tasks and those who enjoy caring work can continue to provide human contact, we are already seeing this sort of in my area with a trial of screens in peoples home to remind them to take meds etc

I also believe that everyone needs to take personal responsibility for their health too and comply when they need that health care, many we see take bandages off because they don’t like them if they have leg ulcers etc, cutting off compression stockings, not sitting with legs up or laying down I afternoons for a while which prolongs the care they need from nursing staff

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