To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

I agree the sense of entitlement has increased a lot and taking personal responsibility decreased. The number of times I've heard 'it's my right to...'(usually followed by some ridiculous demand) when actually no, there are other options like being patient, polite and considerate of others. Xx

Yes you are right OP. What is it with parents expecting their SEN children to get support that meets their needs?
Maybe we should chuck them all in a work house instead?

I think it's important to discuss the problems and it shouldn't be seen as 'Bad Tory' to do that. Equally important is to not dismiss effective solutions and recognise the issue of false economy. Also everyone is contributing (in tax). Even if not NI or income tax, there's VAT and other taxes. Even just spending in shops contributes as it's keeping businesses alive so keeping people in employment.

Investing in dealing with social problems initially costs money but saves money in the end. It also improves quality of life for all of us, and our towns, cities, and villages.

I agree with a PP about the Scandinavian system. Relatively high taxes but a better society and quality of life for everyone. A very important part of this is, if taxes are high, they need to be well spent. Sometimes the current setup with how taxes are spent seems like putting a plaster on a broken leg. Money is spent on the symptoms and consequences instead of the causes and prevention.

Nail on the head!

And it’s not the richest who are paying more it’s the famous ‘squeezed middle’.

That's a load of half baked tosh.

By that "logic" all women who have had babies should be shot because they have taken more out than men.

All people with spina bifida, cystic fibrosis, MS, schizophrenia, sickle cell anemia, asthma and a host of other conditions should be penalized.

All the research shows that you spend on early years and prevent problems later.
Our prisons are overflowing because we ignore that lesson. And prisons cost a fortune to run.

Of course instead of using money effectively to prevent problems, we can pander to the lower common denominator. How about Take back responsibility. And use the slogan to cut any service that is preventative. After all who acres about the future criminals, prisoners and people on mental health wards. They will eb someone else's problem.

There are going to be a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed when the next government’s magic money tree fails to bear fruit.

To some degree...

People should absolutely taking responsibility for:

• raising their kids properly so they don't become anti-social, entitled and idle adults
• looking after their health as much as they can (ie avoiding smoking, drinking, drug abuse, eating to excess)
• work, unless health issues and/or disabilities come in the way.

But

As a taxpayer I also expect tax revenue to be spent on giving us a decent health service, social care, transport system, school system and pensions.

If not why I am contributing so much every month is income tax, council tax and national insurance?

Life is full of ups and downs and it is not a choice to have a disability or long term physical or mental health condition or to be made redundant. It can happen to any of us.

Also if you are lucky enough to be born in a supporting family with no money issues you also need to understand that not everyone has the same start in life.

People who are struggling need a safety net.

The issue right now is that we are paying high levels of tax but get shit public services in return at the moment.

Yeah magic money tree is one of those phrases designed to appeal to the thick.

Well there do seem to be high expectations on spending.

What are you looking to for extra funding?

True, and the same applies to later years and adults too. Early and effective support instead of the current mess where people are left to flounder until crisis point and then have more costly needs. Like the planned millions to 'get people who're off sick with depression and anxiety back to work' (despite the fact that there's less job vacancies than people not working...)

Many people are depressed or anxious because they can't find work or housing or have other social circumstances that need practical support, or they have physical health issues and are stuck on long NHS wait lists. Many in these situations don't need counselling or a punitive benefits system. They need work and training opportunities, decent housing, social care, and quicker NHS treatment. The currently planned 'solution' is more false economy.

I agree with @mathanxiety and @Startingagainandagain

Excellent post, @Againname

"A stitch in time saves nine".

But at least one of the reasons so many aren't contributing is because they are working low paid but very essential jobs. If governments supported an actual living wage then people in work wouldn't be dependant on top ups via UC etc. If everyone working these low paid jobs suddenly got high paid jobs and paid 40% tax we would be f**d as a country.
Essential jobs need to be higher paid and more valued, in order to actually support our schools, nhs, councils etc in providing their services.

@Againname I totally agree. There used to be well funded falls prevention teams who worked with elderly people referred by GPs. The aim was to stop them falling and spending often weeks in hospital. They would do everything from tack down loose carpet, give physio exercises to improve balance, or even give slippers if the person was wearing slippers associated with greater falls risk.
These things are not headline grabbling, but they stop people becoming badly injured and save money.

I think many parents (not particularly aiming this at MNers) would be more than happy for their kids to be in school from 8-6 daily and being parented, educated and everything else.

@Giraffesandbottoms We have people in their fifties and sixties unable to work because of long NHS waiting lists. I know some of these people. A friend who needs a knee operation and in too much pain to leave the house, waiting for a knee replacement.
You cut NHS support, you end up with more people long term sick and unable to work.
We need investment. Our government act like an owner of a house who paints over rotten beams rather than investing and sorting out the underlying rot.

You mean like private schools do?

Annual PFI repayments are about 2bn, or 0.2% of tax revenue. I partly accept the point on the pandemic - I did read the total cost of covid to the UK government was £310 billion to £410 billion. No small amount, but we're not repaying it one it year.

Other countries have aging populations, in fact don't we pay one of the lowest state pensions Europe? Certainly one of the lowesr relative to comparatively wealthy countries. What makes our aging population uniquely expensive?

Maybe if I was smarter, I'd be making a connection between trying to wonder where our money is going, and the booming prosperity enjoyed by the companies related to tory donors.

What’s the state dependency rate like in other countries? I know ours is high but not sure if others are similar

I think if you were being smarter you’d look at which sectors contribute in specific countries, how much people rely on care homes and what type of healthcare model is being used. Any co payment or small charge for medical treatment?

What’s the obesity rate like and general health, we’re not great on obesity compared to Japan or some other EU countries

Loads of things to look at in terms of ageing population impact

But if you are correct I assume all ageing population woes will disappear on the arrival of Labour.

Every person in every country relies on the state in some way.
Or are you going to start hiring your own private police, fire brigade, defence force, etc?

When are labour coming? Sadly all I see on the horizon are Starmer, Elphicke and Poulter's rebranded Tories.

If everyone was taxed at around the same rate as higher rate tax payers in uk (currently 45%) we would have a similar system. I don’t think people will vote for that though. You also can’t compare the UK to Scandinavian countries. We have nothing in common in terms of population size and exploitation of natural resources. I don’t think intense fracking would be any more popular than the high tax rates for everyone.

Oof maybe

I’m no fan so I’ll give you that